WashPost: College is remade as tech majors surge and humanities dwindle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem isn’t the humanities, it’s that middle class people have been told that college is the path to a good career, which they translated as trade school.

In the old days, only children of nobles went to college, and the purpose of a college education was anything but a “job.” Actually getting a “job” was beneath them. But the purpose of college education has changed greatly over the years. Yes, most students and their parents look at colleges as no different in essence from trade schools.

That said, why force kids into STEM if they don’t have a passion for it? CS and engineering undergraduate education is no joke. There’s a reason why engineering schools (at least the decent ones) have high washout rates. Kids are not going to thrive in anything they don’t have a passion for.

It's not passion, it's talent. Engineering degree has washouts because it has standards; means something important in the real world of cars and houses and computers and airplanes and agriculture and pharmaceuticals. No one cares if you learned nothing while getting an English or History degree.

👍👍👍

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

MD requires Algebra 1, Geometry, and a math course every year to fill out the 4 years.

Instead of asking why a diploma requires passing (not mastering) Algebra 1, consider asking why a hair stylist needs a high school degree. World History? English literature? Physics?

Good point! Why should there be compulsory education for 13 years?! You are absolutely right—why should a hair stylist be required to have a high school diploma?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

very bad idea.

I grew up in CA, went to (not great) public school in LAUSD.

Algebra should be the absolute minimum. Algebraic equations are used in every day life. I remember a cashier not being able to calculate the cost of something that was based on the price per some unit of measurement. It was a simple algebraic problem, and the cashier really struggled. Or, in another situation when the cashier couldn't figure out how to count the change without a calculator.

I am so glad we left CA public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

MD requires Algebra 1, Geometry, and a math course every year to fill out the 4 years.

Instead of asking why a diploma requires passing (not mastering) Algebra 1, consider asking why a hair stylist needs a high school degree. World History? English literature? Physics?

Good point! Why should there be compulsory education for 13 years?! You are absolutely right—why should a hair stylist be required to have a high school diploma?

Because we need a general level of education in our society. And that hairstylist might change their mind and want to go to college in a few years, and it would be prudent if they have basic education to do so.

However, I'm not opposed to having cosmetology programs alongside Vocational programs in HS as well. If someone wants the trades (and I consider cosmetology in this), then perhaps they don't need FL. Might be better for them to have more "business"courses and ability to train for 1-2 hours in their field already in HS and get credit for that. So instead of Art/Band/Orch for the 2 years of "art" they can take a cosmotology course for 2 years along with a basic business course (not for a kid heading to college but for someone who might want to own their own small business in 10 years style). Fact is college is not for everyone. A kid who is barely getting a 2.5 GPA and struggling in HS would be much happier in courses they like vs Art class or French class and this would likely make them a better person vs forcing them to be miserable learning advanced math that does not apply to them---put together financial literacy, business math, basic accounting/finance/econ for small businesses---much more practical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

very bad idea.

I grew up in CA, went to (not great) public school in LAUSD.

Algebra should be the absolute minimum. Algebraic equations are used in every day life. I remember a cashier not being able to calculate the cost of something that was based on the price per some unit of measurement. It was a simple algebraic problem, and the cashier really struggled. Or, in another situation when the cashier couldn't figure out how to count the change without a calculator.

I am so glad we left CA public schools.

Algebra 1 should be required, but not Algebra 2 (many states require that). Some type of business math/econ/etc would be much more productive for many kids not heading to college. We need to find a better way to educate those kids who don't plan to go to college and make HS a great educational experience. Just like a kid who is struggling to get a C in basic English is not likely to do well in Spanish or French---it will also be struggle. So let's find some more practical courses for them to take that will prepare them for the real world (and their real world means not heading to a 4 year college). Let's find a way to engage them in learning that is more practical and then we might not have as many cashiers who cannot make change, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society devalues the humanities. That's why our society is in such a sad state.

Wrong. The society of today is not devaluing humanities. Universities’ humanities departments have devalued humanities degrees in the last few decades. In the good old days when few people went to college and fewer studied humanities, those with humanities degrees were the few, the elite of the society. Most of them came from noble families. They didn’t need to get “jobs” to make a living. Then starting in the 1980’s the society was sold the idea that EVERY high school graduate should go to college. Or at least most of them. It was easy money for universities. No labs were needed (unlike science and engineering), and a history class can be held in a big lecture hall of 500 people. Therefore, the society has not devalued humanities, but universities have definitely devalued humanities degrees.

Er, Hello, the universities don’t exactly operate in a vacuum. They mirror what society wants

Agree. But the society “wanted” it because the political elite has been pushing this ridiculous idea of “every child must go to college” for the last 40 years. Germany and Japan are advanced economies but they are fine with most of their youths not going to college. In Germany, a child as young as 11 or 12 years old decides whether he/she wants to go on college track or trade track.

Do you think it is a good thing to decide at 12? What about late bloomers? Also, in Germany, you learn one skill and people don’t really ever switch careers. I can’t imagine not having that flexibility.

I agree, though, that pushing everyone to college is probably not the best thing. The problem is it was (still is?) very much a class thing. Which of us wants to be first in not sending our child? We do it because we think it is expected of our class and we want them to have the opportunities. I don’t see that ever changing. UMC/UC folks will always send their children to college.

That’s the problem with DC educated elites. That’s not my problem or the rest of the society’s problem. They would rather have their boys get useless degrees than skilled labor jobs. The HVAC technician who fixed my AC in 2018 (long before this era of high inflation) told me that he was making $130k and needless to say, started earning positive income early with no student debt.

If only the local school system would accept this and stop trying to force everyone on the same path and focusing on pointless gaps.

+1000
A kid who hates school, struggles throughout, will be much better served by a vocational program as part of HS. Don't make that kid take 2 years of French that they might barely pass and will make them hate school even more. Same with advanced math, etc. Let them study Auto mechanics, HVAC, etc starting in HS for 1-3 hours a day. Let them get an "internship" by senior year with some on the job shadowing. Much better use of their time than making them take French and Algebra 2---develop a math class that will be much more practical/useful for someone going into the trades or not onto college.
Because the fact is, someone who hates school, struggles and barely gets a 2.4 in HS is not likely a good candidate for college immediately upon graduation. They will likely not enjoy college and it will be a waste of $$ and time. so we need to stop pushing them to do this and that it is the "only path to success".

I know I pay $140-150/hr just to have a plumber or HVAC technician come to my house (unless you are on a "plan"). Even in a larger company (with more management and overhead), those technicians are making good money. And more importantly for certain people this is what they love to do. Plenty of kids who "hate school" and regular classes will shine at these hand on problem solving trades.

People who enjoy their plumbing or HVAC job have good personalities, and relaxing work environment, and less college debt, and not obsessed with looking richer and having higher status credentials than the neighbors, not a passion for poop water and dirty air.

Have you ever talked to your plumber? Our neighborhood plumber lived down the street and did really well for himself. He always brags that he's making enough that his kid's wont have to be plumbers. Not everyone wants chronic back pain by 50. The trades may pay well, and really well if you are successful on your own, but you sacrifice you body for a lot of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

MD requires Algebra 1, Geometry, and a math course every year to fill out the 4 years.

Instead of asking why a diploma requires passing (not mastering) Algebra 1, consider asking why a hair stylist needs a high school degree. World History? English literature? Physics?

Good point! Why should there be compulsory education for 13 years?! You are absolutely right—why should a hair stylist be required to have a high school diploma?

Because we need a general level of education in our society. And that hairstylist might change their mind and want to go to college in a few years, and it would be prudent if they have basic education to do so.

However, I'm not opposed to having cosmetology programs alongside Vocational programs in HS as well. If someone wants the trades (and I consider cosmetology in this), then perhaps they don't need FL. Might be better for them to have more "business"courses and ability to train for 1-2 hours in their field already in HS and get credit for that. So instead of Art/Band/Orch for the 2 years of "art" they can take a cosmotology course for 2 years along with a basic business course (not for a kid heading to college but for someone who might want to own their own small business in 10 years style). Fact is college is not for everyone. A kid who is barely getting a 2.5 GPA and struggling in HS would be much happier in courses they like vs Art class or French class and this would likely make them a better person vs forcing them to be miserable learning advanced math that does not apply to them---put together financial literacy, business math, basic accounting/finance/econ for small businesses---much more practical.

We already do. It's available at three schools in FCPS https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high/career-and-technical-education/academies-and-specialized-programs Most UMC families probably don't know it exits because they would never consider it for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

MD requires Algebra 1, Geometry, and a math course every year to fill out the 4 years.

Instead of asking why a diploma requires passing (not mastering) Algebra 1, consider asking why a hair stylist needs a high school degree. World History? English literature? Physics?

Good point! Why should there be compulsory education for 13 years?! You are absolutely right—why should a hair stylist be required to have a high school diploma?

Because we need a general level of education in our society. And that hairstylist might change their mind and want to go to college in a few years, and it would be prudent if they have basic education to do so.

However, I'm not opposed to having cosmetology programs alongside Vocational programs in HS as well. If someone wants the trades (and I consider cosmetology in this), then perhaps they don't need FL. Might be better for them to have more "business"courses and ability to train for 1-2 hours in their field already in HS and get credit for that. So instead of Art/Band/Orch for the 2 years of "art" they can take a cosmotology course for 2 years along with a basic business course (not for a kid heading to college but for someone who might want to own their own small business in 10 years style). Fact is college is not for everyone. A kid who is barely getting a 2.5 GPA and struggling in HS would be much happier in courses they like vs Art class or French class and this would likely make them a better person vs forcing them to be miserable learning advanced math that does not apply to them---put together financial literacy, business math, basic accounting/finance/econ for small businesses---much more practical.

We already do. It's available at three schools in FCPS https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high/career-and-technical-education/academies-and-specialized-programs Most UMC families probably don't know it exits because they would never consider it for their kids.

where I live we do not have that. And I think we should. Glad to see some places do have it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just curious: Do VA, MD and DC public schools require Algebra II as the minimum for HS graduation? If that’s the case, it’s too much. California requires Algebra I as the minimum for HS graduation, but that requirement is under review by the state education officials. That requirement was imposed decades ago and reflects institutional racism. They are thinking about getting rid of that requirement. In some respects they have a point: why require algebra I when your career goal is to be a hair stylist? Arithmetic should be required for HS graduation though.

very bad idea.

I grew up in CA, went to (not great) public school in LAUSD.

Algebra should be the absolute minimum. Algebraic equations are used in every day life. I remember a cashier not being able to calculate the cost of something that was based on the price per some unit of measurement. It was a simple algebraic problem, and the cashier really struggled. Or, in another situation when the cashier couldn't figure out how to count the change without a calculator.

I am so glad we left CA public schools.

Algebra 1 should be required, but not Algebra 2 (many states require that). Some type of business math/econ/etc would be much more productive for many kids not heading to college. We need to find a better way to educate those kids who don't plan to go to college and make HS a great educational experience. Just like a kid who is struggling to get a C in basic English is not likely to do well in Spanish or French---it will also be struggle. So let's find some more practical courses for them to take that will prepare them for the real world (and their real world means not heading to a 4 year college). Let's find a way to engage them in learning that is more practical and then we might not have as many cashiers who cannot make change, etc.

The name of the class really doesn't matter, things have changed up, there's basically a HS math sequence taught on the spiral. Every year the same topics are reinforced and extended a tiny bit. Algebra 2 is not much different from Algebra 1, but for the person who has credit for Algebra 1, Algebra 2 supports that knowledge for another year. That's it. So many threads about math classes, and none of you know what you're kids are learning year-in year-out. Things have changed since you were in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

That’s expected. But in the future, if there are too many CS graduates and too few English and history graduates, the supply and demand relationship might change.

Why would it change? Why would English and history majors be in demand unless it's for teaching English or history?

Huge demand for them in brand and marketing departments in Fortune 500 companies. I'm serious.

The ability to write well and tell stories is highly coveted.

[Anonymous]

In terms of tracking, the article had exactly one quote from a student that showed enthusiasm for something learned in as CS course (I think only one student profiled had no CS in their background). That was someone who came in undecided and only discovered an interest in CS while at UMD. Everyone else had more to say about their humanities courses. Age 18 is not too late to discover yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

That’s expected. But in the future, if there are too many CS graduates and too few English and history graduates, the supply and demand relationship might change.

Why would it change? Why would English and history majors be in demand unless it's for teaching English or history?

Huge demand for them in brand and marketing departments in Fortune 500 companies. I'm serious.

The ability to write well and tell stories is highly coveted.

Fortunate 500 companies should really reconsider hiring woke female English majors (a highly redundant formulation, I know) who "tell stories" that actively alienate their customers (see: Bud Lite, Target).

[Anonymous]

There are 12 pages of comments on this newspaper story and, ironically, not one person on either side of the humanities v. STEMP/CS etc debate actually looked at the underlying data on this question.

The National Center for Education Statistics, a publication of the US Department of Education, publishes an annual report on Bachelor's Degrees conferred by field of study from a broad selection of schools and the data goes back fifty years. It's not exactly majors (it's often groups of majors), but it gives you the general idea. The NCES' government data is not quite the same as the National Student Clearinghouse Research data cited in the Washington Post article for reasons that likely have to do with classification, but the big difference is that it shows the trends over a much longer period than just anecdotal information or the Wash Post story provides.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d22/tables/dt22_322.10.asp

The upshot is that CS is indeed hot (although the field of study includes information sciences, which is broader and can include what used to be called library sciences), but so is Psychology and Health Professions (which doesn't include biology), both of which attract more students than CS. Engineering, on the other hand, is slightly down or at least flat in recent years. Other areas like Social Sciences and History are down from a decade ago, but have been pretty flat over the last 7-8 years. Nevertheless, it's still one of the most popular fields of study. Ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies, which is the bogeyman of some anti-education people, has always had very small enrollment and it has been flat for awhile. All fields of study are dwarfed by Business, which has been the largest field of study since the mid-1980s, although it too has been relatively flat in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

That’s expected. But in the future, if there are too many CS graduates and too few English and history graduates, the supply and demand relationship might change.

Why would it change? Why would English and history majors be in demand unless it's for teaching English or history?

Huge demand for them in brand and marketing departments in Fortune 500 companies. I'm serious.

The ability to write well and tell stories is highly coveted.

Fortunate 500 companies should really reconsider hiring woke female English majors (a highly redundant formulation, I know) who "tell stories" that actively alienate their customers (see: Bud Lite, Target).

Oh by all means, let’s reduce advertising and customer service to an algorithm. CS all the way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

That’s expected. But in the future, if there are too many CS graduates and too few English and history graduates, the supply and demand relationship might change.

Why would it change? Why would English and history majors be in demand unless it's for teaching English or history?

Huge demand for them in brand and marketing departments in Fortune 500 companies. I'm serious.

The ability to write well and tell stories is highly coveted.

Fortunate 500 companies should really reconsider hiring woke female English majors (a highly redundant formulation, I know) who "tell stories" that actively alienate their customers (see: Bud Lite, Target).

Oh by all means, let’s reduce advertising and customer service to an algorithm. CS all the way?

There are people with degrees in marketing and communications. Why is there an assumption that a degree that prepares you for nothing is the best preparation for any career?