Columbia University becomes first Ivy League institution to go permanently test-optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to be a poor white kid because they’re typically in rural areas.

It's a demographic that nobody cares about, whether on the left or right.

The US is a weird country, because working class/poor people are divided politically between the two parties, mostly based on race. Which is intentional by the people in power. We've never had a true "labor" party like they have in European countries. One of the ways this line between poor White and non-White people is maintained is by parceling out public benefits (such as education) by race, rather than by social class.

So, progressives hand out educational opportunity to minorities in exchange for their vote, and poor, rural White people are kept angry and separated from the people they have the most aligned interests with, which keeps them voting Republican.

[Anonymous]

W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am so torn about this. We are a UMC family in McLean, my kids will have college consultants and test prep starting 9th grade, I will throw best resources behind my kids because they have no HOOKS, so in a way money and hard work/grind is all we have. However, DH and I belong to MC stable families and went to top schools (no hooks). Sure, we were driven, motivated, worked really hard (although had no crazy resources like my kids) but back in the day competition was not as crazy, DH was full scholarship (UG and Grad) at UOI - Urbana Champaign.

Education changed our family trajectory from MC to UMC/Wealthy, my kids are working hard no doubt but they also have every resource and help they can dream of. My son is an exceptional student, who will make something truly good out of his life regardless of which college he attends (but we are not taking a chance), my daughter is an above average/solid student who is receiving help from best tutors to prop her to top 5% in her class. So many around us in McLean are doing the same. However, poor kids don't even have a fraction of these resources.

I strongly feel that poor kids should be given a preference over my kid, it will hurt but you know what every family deserves a chance to put them on a track to MC/UMC trajectory We got our chance, sure we got them based on merit but the world has changed in last 25-30 yrs. If families similar to mine keep on hoarding the opportunity, that will not be morally and ethically right.

I do not support preference to Black and Hispanic kids from wealthy families. I fully support preference to poor kids whether they are White, Asian, Brown or Black.

* Although, my heart truly goes out to true middle class White and Asian parents who don't have the wealth for prep and consultation and they don't have the FARMS and URM hooks either. My parents were in the same category 25 yrs back but competition was much sane.

At least you acknowledge your privilege. Not many in DCUM do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

Pls attach the data to prove that the majority of TO accepted students are white thx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am so torn about this. We are a UMC family in McLean, my kids will have college consultants and test prep starting 9th grade, I will throw best resources behind my kids because they have no HOOKS, so in a way money and hard work/grind is all we have. However, DH and I belong to MC stable families and went to top schools (no hooks). Sure, we were driven, motivated, worked really hard (although had no crazy resources like my kids) but back in the day competition was not as crazy, DH was full scholarship (UG and Grad) at UOI - Urbana Champaign.

Education changed our family trajectory from MC to UMC/Wealthy, my kids are working hard no doubt but they also have every resource and help they can dream of. My son is an exceptional student, who will make something truly good out of his life regardless of which college he attends (but we are not taking a chance), my daughter is an above average/solid student who is receiving help from best tutors to prop her to top 5% in her class. So many around us in McLean are doing the same. However, poor kids don't even have a fraction of these resources.

I strongly feel that poor kids should be given a preference over my kid, it will hurt but you know what every family deserves a chance to put them on a track to MC/UMC trajectory We got our chance, sure we got them based on merit but the world has changed in last 25-30 yrs. If families similar to mine keep on hoarding the opportunity, that will not be morally and ethically right.

I do not support preference to Black and Hispanic kids from wealthy families. I fully support preference to poor kids whether they are White, Asian, Brown or Black.

* Although, my heart truly goes out to true middle class White and Asian parents who don't have the wealth for prep and consultation and they don't have the FARMS and URM hooks either. My parents were in the same category 25 yrs back but competition was much sane.

At least you acknowledge your privilege. Not many in DCUM do.

This exactly. When people say admissions should be based on merit, how exactly do you do that.
Elites have everything going for them - top private schools, travel sports, tutoring, coaching, international travel, educated parents, etc.
Lower income kids cannot compete with this level of privilege

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

Pls attach the data to prove that the majority of TO accepted students are white thx

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738


Demographics of fall 2022 class: Total class 1,643. 34% are TO = 559 students.

Even if the majority of URM students applied TO along with some Asian/multi-racial students, the majority of the incoming TO students are white.

African American/Black 5% = 82 students
American Indian/Alaskan Native <1%
Asian 12%
Hispanic/Latino 9% = 148 students
International 4%
Multi-racial 7%
White 61% = 1002
Race/Ethnicity Unknown 2%

https://research.schev.edu/iProfile/231624/William-&-Mary
https://www.wm.edu/admission/undergraduateadmission/facts-figures/class-profile/

[Anonymous]

I am considering opting out if this madness and sending kids to be educated in my spouse’s home country (in Europe). The downside is that you have to study for a test for two years that will heavily inflicts your future, but at the same time at least it’s transparent and fair.

[Anonymous]

Test Optional will be the new normal. One Ivy League domino has fallen.

And..... naysayers, stop bringing up MIT. Definitely a tech school anomaly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test Optional will be the new normal. One Ivy League domino has fallen.

And..... naysayers, stop bringing up MIT. Definitely a tech school anomaly.

not to mention that the better tech school, Caltech is test blind. Not even test optional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am considering opting out if this madness and sending kids to be educated in my spouse’s home country (in Europe). The downside is that you have to study for a test for two years that will heavily inflicts your future, but at the same time at least it’s transparent and fair.

like adding the SAT back makes the US process any more transparent or fair. it's not like getting a 1600 got you anywhere.

you should send your kid. better health coverage and probably fewer guns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to be a poor white kid because they’re typically in rural areas.

It's a demographic that nobody cares about, whether on the left or right.

The US is a weird country, because working class/poor people are divided politically between the two parties, mostly based on race. Which is intentional by the people in power. We've never had a true "labor" party like they have in European countries. One of the ways this line between poor White and non-White people is maintained is by parceling out public benefits (such as education) by race, rather than by social class.

So, progressives hand out educational opportunity to minorities in exchange for their vote, and poor, rural White people are kept angry and separated from the people they have the most aligned interests with, which keeps them voting Republican.

test optional and FGLI hook helps poor white kids, and if you stopped being resentful about it, you'd see that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am considering opting out if this madness and sending kids to be educated in my spouse’s home country (in Europe). The downside is that you have to study for a test for two years that will heavily inflicts your future, but at the same time at least it’s transparent and fair.

like adding the SAT back makes the US process any more transparent or fair. it's not like getting a 1600 got you anywhere.

you should send your kid. better health coverage and probably fewer guns.

Yeah to be clear I don’t even care much about SATs, it just seems like it’s turned into such an unpredictable lottery. And while I know there are many dozen fantastic colleges in the US, not all of them are worth paying 30-60k+ per year for vs solid free options (and if that test goes well, world-class free options)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous!

Sounds like this test doesn't provide any helpful information about student outcomes so not all that ridiciulous.

??? You are completely wrong.
All the studies by MIT, UC, etc.. proved that standardized tests are good indication for academic success in colleges.

NP. You are completely wrong. The results from studies are mixed—some say test scores don’t correlate with success, some say they do, some say they correlate but aren’t the best predictor of success. There is no definitive evidence in any direction.

And what schools going test-optional seem to be finding is that they can select successful students without test scores, so they are removing it as a required factor in admissions.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's an anecdote for you. I'm a white guy from a working class background with parents who never finished high school. I went to a no-name college because it never even occurred to me to apply anywhere else. I ended up with an extremely high GPA and, with coaxing and coaching from a dean of the college, ended up winning a highly prestigious scholarship for graduate studies abroad .

I did not do well on the SAT and also bombed the LSAT. Coming from my background, it honestly never even occurred to me that I needed to or should prep for it. I literally thought to myself "ok, to apply to law school you need to take the LSAT," so I simply signed up and walk into the exam room and took it.

My LSAT score easily placed me in the bottom ten percent of accepted applicants. In a school where the median score of my entering class was well above the 90th percentile, my score was in the 60th percentile. I was admitted to the law school solely on the basis of my GPA and because I applied from abroad while on my graduate scholarship.

I finished my 1L year first in the class, and it wasn't close. Number 2 was an Ivy League grad with a perfect LSAT score. I was retroactively awarded a full scholarship. I ended up graduating in the top 5, landing a top federal court of appeals clerkship, getting hired by one of the most selective Biglaw firms in the country, and eventually made equity partner.

Bottom line: my test scores obviously did not reflect the full extent of my abilities in any way, shape or form. My law school apparently knew that and took a chance on me. I'm grateful for that.

My kids, on the other hand, all had SAT and ACT scores that blew mine completely out of the water, and all of them ended up attending top colleges and universities. I love my kids and obviously think they're smart, but I don't think for a second that a bunch of near geniuses (exaggerating but you get the point) were the spawn of idiot genes. It typically doesn't happen that way.

No, what happened is this: my kids' test scores were the combined product of both their natural intelligence AND the privilege of being raised in a high income environment with educated parents who understood the system and had the wherewithal to make it work for them. It's just so painfully obvious.

This board suffers from the delusion that standardized test scores used for college admissions are more than just a blunt instrument. They're not. They're axes, not scalpel. The notion that high test scores should trump everything else -- or that low test scores should be disqualifying -- is ridiculous.

Nice post!