Columbia University becomes first Ivy League institution to go permanently test-optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly the SC case result is going to be really interesting. It’s simply clear that schools have discriminated against Asians. And it’s also clear that conservatives have wanted to end AA for decades to help white Americans to retain an upper hand in life. Many of those same conservatives won’t love to see brown (ie Asian Americans) do better than their white kids which would be the case of admissions is based purely on gpa and test scores. So do the conservative justices actually end up adhering to their principles that colleges admissions should be based on “merit” (ie gpa and tests) only? Or, continue with holistic factors and racism? Who on the supreme
Court has a kid or grandkid or great grandkid in HS now? I am sure that is informing their thinking. Fascinating….

They’re not going to ban any of the things that goose white enrollment: athletic recruiting, legacy, donor, etc. those all stay intact.

Hopkins did away with legacy already. Many are following suit.

It’s been a few years and only a handful of schools have “followed suit”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

This what most don't understand: in sheer numbers, test optional benefits whites more than URMs.

URMs are URMs for a reason: they are UNDERREPRESENTED in college admissions and matriculation.

They are proportional to their occurrence in the general US population. In that manner, they are actually over-represented minorities at many schools.

Whites are under-represented at Hopkins for the same reason. (19%)

This is completely false. Have you seen the racial demographics of top universities? URMs are called that because they are STILL underrepresented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

This what most don't understand: in sheer numbers, test optional benefits whites more than URMs.

URMs are URMs for a reason: they are UNDERREPRESENTED in college admissions and matriculation.

They are proportional to their occurrence in the general US population. In that manner, they are actually over-represented minorities at many schools.

Whites are under-represented at Hopkins for the same reason. (19%)

This is completely false. Have you seen the racial demographics of top universities? URMs are called that because they are STILL underrepresented.

Blacks and Hispanics are still somewhat underrepresented vs entire US population at top schools while Asians are wildly over represented. Whites are becoming underrepresented (Stanford 22 pct) mainly because of Asian and half Asian over representation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

This what most don't understand: in sheer numbers, test optional benefits whites more than URMs.

URMs are URMs for a reason: they are UNDERREPRESENTED in college admissions and matriculation.

They are proportional to their occurrence in the general US population. In that manner, they are actually over-represented minorities at many schools.

Whites are under-represented at Hopkins for the same reason. (19%)

This is completely false. Have you seen the racial demographics of top universities? URMs are called that because they are STILL underrepresented.

Blacks and Hispanics are still somewhat underrepresented vs entire US population at top schools while Asians are wildly over represented. Whites are becoming underrepresented (Stanford 22 pct) mainly because of Asian and half Asian over representation.

Yes an short white men are underrepresented in basketball. It's not underrepresented if you're less qualified and it's not overrepresentee if you are more qualified. Races are appropriately represented based on their ability (actually Asians still underrepresented due to discrimination in admissions)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, darling, You misunderstood. In the US Asians are whites. Because we can't have a successful, highly performing and rapidly growing non-white group that achieves phenomenal outcomes without DEI and affirmative action and government help. Therefore Asians must really be whites because otherwise it doesn't fit the narrative of systematic racism and we need to applying huge double standards and wildly different admissions standards to keep out Asians from our elite schools.

You don’t get it, do you? It’s got nothing to do with you being Asian. Everyone is just sick and tired of tiger parent, drill, robotic, pressure cooker culture that you create. That and lack of cultural assimilation. Indians don’t assimilate with whites or blacks, they create only Indian groups. You are more racist than whites.

Speak for yourself. The Indians I know display many of the things that have typically been considered American values. Things like, encouraging their kids to get an education, hard work, not breaking the law, taking care of one's family, rather than expecting the government to do so, and so on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

This what most don't understand: in sheer numbers, test optional benefits whites more than URMs.

URMs are URMs for a reason: they are UNDERREPRESENTED in college admissions and matriculation.

They are proportional to their occurrence in the general US population. In that manner, they are actually over-represented minorities at many schools.

Whites are under-represented at Hopkins for the same reason. (19%)

This is completely false. Have you seen the racial demographics of top universities? URMs are called that because they are STILL underrepresented.

Blacks and Hispanics are still somewhat underrepresented vs entire US population at top schools while Asians are wildly over represented. Whites are becoming underrepresented (Stanford 22 pct) mainly because of Asian and half Asian over representation.

Yes a short white men are underrepresented in basketball. It's not underrepresented if you're less qualified and it's not overrepresentee if you are more qualified. Races are appropriately represented based on their ability (actually Asians still underrepresented due to discrimination in admissions)

This

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to be a poor white kid because they’re typically in rural areas.

It's a demographic that nobody cares about, whether on the left or right.

The US is a weird country, because working class/poor people are divided politically between the two parties, mostly based on race. Which is intentional by the people in power. We've never had a true "labor" party like they have in European countries. One of the ways this line between poor White and non-White people is maintained is by parceling out public benefits (such as education) by race, rather than by social class.

So, progressives hand out educational opportunity to minorities in exchange for their vote, and poor, rural White people are kept angry and separated from the people they have the most aligned interests with, which keeps them voting Republican.

test optional and FGLI hook helps poor white kids, and if you stopped being resentful about it, you'd see that.

Let me know when there’s equivalents of the Posse program or elite universities doing outreach to middle school/high school kids for rural poor whites

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's an anecdote for you. I'm a white guy from a working class background with parents who never finished high school. I went to a no-name college because it never even occurred to me to apply anywhere else. I ended up with an extremely high GPA and, with coaxing and coaching from a dean of the college, ended up winning a highly prestigious scholarship for graduate studies abroad .

I did not do well on the SAT and also bombed the LSAT. Coming from my background, it honestly never even occurred to me that I needed to or should prep for it. I literally thought to myself "ok, to apply to law school you need to take the LSAT," so I simply signed up and walk into the exam room and took it.

My LSAT score easily placed me in the bottom ten percent of accepted applicants. In a school where the median score of my entering class was well above the 90th percentile, my score was in the 60th percentile. I was admitted to the law school solely on the basis of my GPA and because I applied from abroad while on my graduate scholarship.

I finished my 1L year first in the class, and it wasn't close. Number 2 was an Ivy League grad with a perfect LSAT score. I was retroactively awarded a full scholarship. I ended up graduating in the top 5, landing a top federal court of appeals clerkship, getting hired by one of the most selective Biglaw firms in the country, and eventually made equity partner.

Bottom line: my test scores obviously did not reflect the full extent of my abilities in any way, shape or form. My law school apparently knew that and took a chance on me. I'm grateful for that.

My kids, on the other hand, all had SAT and ACT scores that blew mine completely out of the water, and all of them ended up attending top colleges and universities. I love my kids and obviously think they're smart, but I don't think for a second that a bunch of near geniuses (exaggerating but you get the point) were the spawn of idiot genes. It typically doesn't happen that way.

No, what happened is this: my kids' test scores were the combined product of both their natural intelligence AND the privilege of being raised in a high income environment with educated parents who understood the system and had the wherewithal to make it work for them. It's just so painfully obvious.

This board suffers from the delusion that standardized test scores used for college admissions are more than just a blunt instrument. They're not. They're axes, not scalpel. The notion that high test scores should trump everything else -- or that low test scores should be disqualifying -- is ridiculous.

I have a very similar story. My LSAT was low, yet I graduated Summa Cum Laude. I had no idea how to prepare, my parents were not involved at all (and were not paying), and I had not gone to a school that had any sort of pre-law counseling or many students applying to law school. I was so underestimated going into law school, but proved everyone wrong. My kids had the advantage of prep and better schools.

Both of you are failing to point out the one thing you both have in common that allow you to move to the top. You are both WHITE. No one is taking a chance on a black guy from PG county.... You are probably the lowest of the whites but guess what, you still have the upper hand because you are white.

I would love to know what industry you are in, PP. Colleges and corporations are ALL taking a chance to push AAs as much as possible. Catch up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M just posted "W&M extends test-optional admission process indefinitely"

https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/?utm_source=facebookwm&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=03022023-test-optional&fbclid=IwAR3VXft4vCy2P9kfpkWJkL6KFBPabHklA3hg3DNT5fO8ka0LvVyJBErY738

Evidence from link that many non-URM students are applying and getting accepted TO:

In the university’s latest entering class, which started in the fall, 34% of enrolling students applied without test scores.

Considering W&M’s yield rate nearly half of accepted students applied TO. Statistically, the majority were white students.

This what most don't understand: in sheer numbers, test optional benefits whites more than URMs.

URMs are URMs for a reason: they are UNDERREPRESENTED in college admissions and matriculation.

They are proportional to their occurrence in the general US population. In that manner, they are actually over-represented minorities at many schools.

Whites are under-represented at Hopkins for the same reason. (19%)

This is completely false. Have you seen the racial demographics of top universities? URMs are called that because they are STILL underrepresented.

Blacks and Hispanics are still somewhat underrepresented vs entire US population at top schools while Asians are wildly over represented. Whites are becoming underrepresented (Stanford 22 pct) mainly because of Asian and half Asian over representation.

Yes an short white men are underrepresented in basketball. It's not underrepresented if you're less qualified and it's not overrepresentee if you are more qualified. Races are appropriately represented based on their ability (actually Asians still underrepresented due to discrimination in admissions)

I don’t disagree with you. I am just pointing out as a matter of fact which groups have higher or lower representation on elite college campuses relative to the broader population. Asians and Jews have waayyy higher representation. That is the main difference. Do they deserve to be there? Yes. Are Asians especially discriminated against in the name of DEI because their background is disclosed? Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, darling, You misunderstood. In the US Asians are whites. Because we can't have a successful, highly performing and rapidly growing non-white group that achieves phenomenal outcomes without DEI and affirmative action and government help. Therefore Asians must really be whites because otherwise it doesn't fit the narrative of systematic racism and we need to applying huge double standards and wildly different admissions standards to keep out Asians from our elite schools.

You don’t get it, do you? It’s got nothing to do with you being Asian. Everyone is just sick and tired of tiger parent, drill, robotic, pressure cooker culture that you create. That and lack of cultural assimilation. Indians don’t assimilate with whites or blacks, they create only Indian groups. You are more racist than whites.

This post exemplifies the anti-Asian bigotry that has really built up among whites (and which is tolerated) as Asians have outcompeted them. I am writing as a white person. I think the Harvard/UNC lawsuits have really made a lot of white people mad because for the first time Asians are asserting their rights as Americans and speaking up. Whitey doesn’t like it- expects Asians to be quiet and deferential. The next goal for Asians should be to take leadership positions across America - they are drastically under represented. A quarter of the Ivy League is Asian but how many Senators and SC justices? It’s ridiculous. But Asians need to be prepared for backlash like this poster demonstrated.

Umm. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Many of us are applauding them. And the UNC case mirrors their Harvard case. People that want merit-based admissions and a push back from holistic and reverse discrimination, are all in favor for merit as a standard.

I don't know who is trying to make this a battle of asians vs caucasians. They used to be united in this fight. In fact, I think the majority pretty much are for ending AA- period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No, darling, You misunderstood. In the US Asians are whites. Because we can't have a successful, highly performing and rapidly growing non-white group that achieves phenomenal outcomes without DEI and affirmative action and government help. Therefore Asians must really be whites because otherwise it doesn't fit the narrative of systematic racism and we need to applying huge double standards and wildly different admissions standards to keep out Asians from our elite schools.

You don’t get it, do you? It’s got nothing to do with you being Asian. Everyone is just sick and tired of tiger parent, drill, robotic, pressure cooker culture that you create. That and lack of cultural assimilation. Indians don’t assimilate with whites or blacks, they create only Indian groups. You are more racist than whites.

This post exemplifies the anti-Asian bigotry that has really built up among whites (and which is tolerated) as Asians have outcompeted them. I am writing as a white person. I think the Harvard/UNC lawsuits have really made a lot of white people mad because for the first time Asians are asserting their rights as Americans and speaking up. Whitey doesn’t like it- expects Asians to be quiet and deferential. The next goal for Asians should be to take leadership positions across America - they are drastically under represented. A quarter of the Ivy League is Asian but how many Senators and SC justices? It’s ridiculous. But Asians need to be prepared for backlash like this poster demonstrated.

Umm. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Many of us are applauding them. And the UNC case mirrors their Harvard case. People that want merit-based admissions and a push back from holistic and reverse discrimination, are all in favor for merit as a standard.

I don't know who is trying to make this a battle of asians vs caucasians. They used to be united in this fight. In fact, I think the majority pretty much are for ending AA- period.

I was referring to the person who made disparaging comments about “Tiger moms” and “pressure cooker”. A lot of whites have anti Asian animosity right below the surface and this DEI world we live in now gives them a green light to embrace those feelings of resentment and insecurity. Being anti black is off limits but being anti Asian is fine all day long. After all, Asians are successful and success, by definition, can only be achieved through systemic advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to be a poor white kid because they’re typically in rural areas.

It's a demographic that nobody cares about, whether on the left or right.

The US is a weird country, because working class/poor people are divided politically between the two parties, mostly based on race. Which is intentional by the people in power. We've never had a true "labor" party like they have in European countries. One of the ways this line between poor White and non-White people is maintained is by parceling out public benefits (such as education) by race, rather than by social class.

So, progressives hand out educational opportunity to minorities in exchange for their vote, and poor, rural White people are kept angry and separated from the people they have the most aligned interests with, which keeps them voting Republican.

test optional and FGLI hook helps poor white kids, and if you stopped being resentful about it, you'd see that.

Let me know when there’s equivalents of the Posse program or elite universities doing outreach to middle school/high school kids for rural poor whites

Well, there have been a few genuine Questbridge pearls amidst the swine of fakirs. QB just needs to do their due diligence. Hell, AOs need “Verification Officers” at this point, go for broke since H has like one admin for every student now

[Anonymous]

Let me know when there’s equivalents of the Posse program or elite universities doing outreach to middle school/high school kids for rural poor whites.
Well, there have been a few genuine Questbridge pearls amidst the swine of fakirs. QB just needs to do their due diligence. Hell, AOs need “Verification Officers” at this point, go for broke since H has like one admin for every student now

I'm not sure what the last sentence means, but we have a good friend, single mom (white), with a Questbridge kid at Northwestern. Kid had to work to help support family, no time or money for fancy ECs, worked hard in school and kicking booty in Evanston.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to be a poor white kid because they’re typically in rural areas.

It's a demographic that nobody cares about, whether on the left or right.

The US is a weird country, because working class/poor people are divided politically between the two parties, mostly based on race. Which is intentional by the people in power. We've never had a true "labor" party like they have in European countries. One of the ways this line between poor White and non-White people is maintained is by parceling out public benefits (such as education) by race, rather than by social class.

So, progressives hand out educational opportunity to minorities in exchange for their vote, and poor, rural White people are kept angry and separated from the people they have the most aligned interests with, which keeps them voting Republican.

test optional and FGLI hook helps poor white kids, and if you stopped being resentful about it, you'd see that.

Let me know when there’s equivalents of the Posse program or elite universities doing outreach to middle school/high school kids for rural poor whites

Well, there have been a few genuine Questbridge pearls amidst the swine of fakirs. QB just needs to do their due diligence. Hell, AOs need “Verification Officers” at this point, go for broke since H has like one admin for every student now

Just to be clear, is the insinuation here that Indian families (“fakirs”) game the Questbridge system and present themselves as underprivileged POCs when they perhaps drive a Mercedes Benz? Is this really a thing?

[Anonymous]

No malice intended. I misspelled “fakers”