The death of Allie Hart and the need for safer streets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

This. If you are not taking care at an intersection to see that there is a child and you cannot account for their wherabouts as you proceed through the intersection and hit her, that is on you as the driver. You are the one operating a 2+ ton vehicle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

this!

When you're biking with your kid, YOU need to make sure drivers know your kid is there. That means you block the intersection until kid is across.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

Well he was wrong. Thinking an intersection is clear because one person walked through it is not safe driving. He should have checked to see if anyone else was coming through.

and 100% the police would have charged the driver if this how it happened! He would have gotten a traffic ticket at the very least.

Doubt it if the driver defense was that the child was below their ability to visualize. Police might not have charged.

idk about that. Hitting another car because it's in your blind spot isn't a defense to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

this!

When you're biking with your kid, YOU need to make sure drivers know your kid is there. That means you block the intersection until kid is across.

100%. I live near the busy downtown of a small city and it is disturbing to see parents biking far behind and letting their small children zip down the sidewalk across driveways with limited visibility for small, fast moving bikes coming. So dangerous. Drivers should be hyper aware on busy streets/situations but so should parents!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

this!

When you're biking with your kid, YOU need to make sure drivers know your kid is there. That means you block the intersection until kid is across.

100%. I live near the busy downtown of a small city and it is disturbing to see parents biking far behind and letting their small children zip down the sidewalk across driveways with limited visibility for small, fast moving bikes coming. So dangerous. Drivers should be hyper aware on busy streets/situations but so should parents!

DCUM's gonna DCUM, and that means blaming the parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the issue is that some of the overly defensive parents in here know that they are being unsafe by letting their kids bike and scoot on busy roads in cities. You shouldn't do that, it's not safe. It doesn't matter whether the driver is charged with a crime or not, your kid is still dead and is not ever coming back.

By the way, this is exactly why people move to quiet suburbs after they have kids.

It still happens in the burbs, What about this wouldn't happen in the burbs? This particular story happened in Brookland, not downtown, Brookland is fairly suburban anyway.

+1 my Bethesda suburb doesn't even have sidewalks. It can happen anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Here's another one that haunts me. Kids survived, but serious trauma, injuries.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/young-children-hit-by-car-while-walking-to-school-in-southeast-dc/65-29f61418-687b-4baf-98ab-f92f819a909c

[Anonymous]

Oh and this one. BTW, DC did almost nothing at this intersection afterwards.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/video-captures-hit-and-run-driver-striking-boy-on-bicycle-in-northeast-dc/2907507/

[Anonymous]

It took DC YEARS to put a crosswalk at this spot ok Oklahoma Ave, where this pathway is the main route to the new playground and soccer fields at RFK. And even then, DC wouldn't include a stop sign, it's just a crosswalk that people might or might not stop for.

The reason for dragging their feet seemed to be they needed to make it ADA compliant and get the funds to dig out the curb, but they couldn't at least have drawn crosswalk lines in the meantime?

Also, why do we put in stop signs at schools, but not always for playgrounds?

[Anonymous]

Here's an entire thread of the same spot where she died and people still not stopping - at this intersection is a school with a playground as well as a church.

[Anonymous]

Here's a post from some idiot who used videos of cars stopping illegally and getting ticketed by a stop sign camera. The idiot thought that these were legal stops. They were not.

https://www.popville.com/2022/02/dc-started-spitting-out-tickets-at-a-crazy-rate/

One of the videos.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wTBMmn9jyBpnIIH2q5mi75UMuT11ast_/view

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the police did not find fault with the driver's actions and no charges were brought, I think it's very weird that some people are in here insisting the the police report is wrong and they know better.

Accidents happen. Even tragic ones. That doesn't make the driver at fault. Wrong time, wrong place for both people.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the dad who wasn't right beside her making sure she stopped at the curb and didn't dart out into the street. I personally wouldn't but I think he is more at fault than the driver who was not charged by police.

What police report? Seriously. I've looked and can't find anything other than the preliminary report issued the day after the accident. If there was any further investigation by the MPD, it'd be good for the public to learn of the outcome. Regardless of whether the driver was at fault or not, transparency matters. Particularly when someone is killed.

[Anonymous]

What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

https://smartgrowthamerica.org/bigger-vehicles-are-directly-resulting-in-more-deaths-of-people-walking/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

Replace the adult in the photo with a child