The death of Allie Hart and the need for safer streets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What police report? Seriously. I've looked and can't find anything other than the preliminary report issued the day after the accident. If there was any further investigation by the MPD, it'd be good for the public to learn of the outcome. Regardless of whether the driver was at fault or not, transparency matters. Particularly when someone is killed.

You'll have to request it via the DC version of FOIA. And they might not release it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am not sure if this is true but for some reason my understanding of the driver's actions were that he allegedly stopped at a stop sign and the proceeded through the intersection where he killed the girl in the crosswalk on the OTHER side. So the fact that he stopped was not even really relevant since he still had an obligation to yield to her in the crosswalk but that would explain how he was able to gain enough speed to kill her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

It's 20 mph, five-year-olds aren't "most people", and the vehicle was a cargo van.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I can't understand is how, if the driver stopped before the crosswalk and accelerated safely from a stop, his vehicle gained enough speed between where he stopped and the crosswalk to kill a five year-old. Studies show that most pedestrians have a very good chance of surviving being hit by a vehicle going 25 mph. The vehicle can't have travelled more than a few feet before reaching the crosswalk and so, with a normal acceleration, should have been traveling considerably less than 25 mph. With the few facts we have to go on, the accident doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am not sure if this is true but for some reason my understanding of the driver's actions were that he allegedly stopped at a stop sign and the proceeded through the intersection where he killed the girl in the crosswalk on the OTHER side. So the fact that he stopped was not even really relevant since he still had an obligation to yield to her in the crosswalk but that would explain how he was able to gain enough speed to kill her.

Well that's even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the police did not find fault with the driver's actions and no charges were brought, I think it's very weird that some people are in here insisting the the police report is wrong and they know better.

Accidents happen. Even tragic ones. That doesn't make the driver at fault. Wrong time, wrong place for both people.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the dad who wasn't right beside her making sure she stopped at the curb and didn't dart out into the street. I personally wouldn't but I think he is more at fault than the driver who was not charged by police.

If I have a choice between blaming the father of a dead five year old and the driver of a deadly vehicle who killed a child in the crosswalk I am going to blame the diver every time. Driving is a responsibility and I am sick of people treating it like some god-given right. If you can't operate a vehicle in a manner that allows you to NOT KILL a child in a crosswalk then you should not be driving and I think you should be arrested and thrown in jail if you kill someone. Clearly the system does not agree with me on the latter point but I am so sick of that reality. Blaming the parents does nothing because it isn't their fault- they did not choose to drive a car into a child. The driver did.

Also, if she has the right of way she isn't "darting" into the street. She legally entered a crosswalk. Darting implies she did it with no warning or in a place she should not have been. The warning to the driver is the fact that there is a crosswalk there. Pedestrians are already relegated to only being "allowed" to cross in a crosswalk and it is unconscionable that even when they DO stay in the crosswalk then can be murdered with zero repercussions to the perpetrator.

Yeah it doesn't. LOL. I mean, come on. This is WHY we have traffic rules and laws. The father wasn't abiding by the law. He let his kid scoot out into traffic. This is the result.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we can throw an innocent driver in jail. Come on.

The law says that a driver has to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk, which the driver did not do. I have never seen a DC laws that says that an adult is breaking a law by "letting " a kid scoot into traffic. She was biking into the crosswalk, not into traffic.

The driver is not innocent - he broke the law and should be in jail, absolutely. As I point out, other people do not agree with me but I have zero issues with putting someone in jail for killing a child in a crosswalk. Apparently the threat of actually killing someone did nothing to deter this driver's behavior so maybe the threat of jail would work.

I think the driver who hit the dad and his two daughters on walk to school day should be in jail.

I think the driver who hit Zaire Joshua in a crosswalk should be in jail.

I will absolutely continue to advocate for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

You think kids still don't get hit in cul de sacs in the burbs?

Also this was Brookland DC, which is essentially like the burbs. It was a suburban street at an intersection with a school + playground and a church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

+1

I do this and you are dreaming if you think that this means that drivers will not start driving because they see a person standing with a bike. I have absolutely had drivers honk at me and nip at my heels while I am standing in the crosswalk, blocking the m from hitting my children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the police did not find fault with the driver's actions and no charges were brought, I think it's very weird that some people are in here insisting the the police report is wrong and they know better.

Accidents happen. Even tragic ones. That doesn't make the driver at fault. Wrong time, wrong place for both people.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the dad who wasn't right beside her making sure she stopped at the curb and didn't dart out into the street. I personally wouldn't but I think he is more at fault than the driver who was not charged by police.

If I have a choice between blaming the father of a dead five year old and the driver of a deadly vehicle who killed a child in the crosswalk I am going to blame the diver every time. Driving is a responsibility and I am sick of people treating it like some god-given right. If you can't operate a vehicle in a manner that allows you to NOT KILL a child in a crosswalk then you should not be driving and I think you should be arrested and thrown in jail if you kill someone. Clearly the system does not agree with me on the latter point but I am so sick of that reality. Blaming the parents does nothing because it isn't their fault- they did not choose to drive a car into a child. The driver did.

Also, if she has the right of way she isn't "darting" into the street. She legally entered a crosswalk. Darting implies she did it with no warning or in a place she should not have been. The warning to the driver is the fact that there is a crosswalk there. Pedestrians are already relegated to only being "allowed" to cross in a crosswalk and it is unconscionable that even when they DO stay in the crosswalk then can be murdered with zero repercussions to the perpetrator.

Yeah it doesn't. LOL. I mean, come on. This is WHY we have traffic rules and laws. The father wasn't abiding by the law. He let his kid scoot out into traffic. This is the result.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we can throw an innocent driver in jail. Come on.

The law says that a driver has to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk, which the driver did not do. I have never seen a DC laws that says that an adult is breaking a law by "letting " a kid scoot into traffic. She was biking into the crosswalk, not into traffic.

The driver is not innocent - he broke the law and should be in jail, absolutely. As I point out, other people do not agree with me but I have zero issues with putting someone in jail for killing a child in a crosswalk. Apparently the threat of actually killing someone did nothing to deter this driver's behavior so maybe the threat of jail would work.

I think the driver who hit the dad and his two daughters on walk to school day should be in jail.

I think the driver who hit Zaire Joshua in a crosswalk should be in jail.

I will absolutely continue to advocate for this.

+100000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

+1

I do this and you are dreaming if you think that this means that drivers will not start driving because they see a person standing with a bike. I have absolutely had drivers honk at me and nip at my heels while I am standing in the crosswalk, blocking the m from hitting my children.

Same. I live in DC, but in a "quiet residential" type area and the drivers are ridiculous. DC also does bare minimum enforcement. In the burbs, growing up, I or friends, as stupid late teen/early 20s drivers, were pulled over fairly frequently (and learned from it!), and it was a very frequent occurrence to see police pull over drivers for anything - running a red light, speeding, and more.

In 15 years of living in this city and I still have yet to even witness DC MPD pull over a driver for a traffic infraction. 15 bleeping years.

We were pulled over once, but it was by Capitol Police, not MPD, and we didn't realize one headlight was out while driving past the Capitol building.

People run up thousands of dollars in tickets and the best wDC can do is find and boot those cars, but even that was nil for awhile because DC reduced the boot team to 2 people until public outcry recently.

No reciprocity with MD and VA drivers means commuters can drive through our city with zero concern for MPD pulling them over and with zero concern for traffic cameras because nothing will ever happen to them, ever.

This is NOT ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't help but feel that a mother would be holding her hand

They were biking, likely the parent led into the intersection and the driver only stopped for the dad while not seeing the child whose height was below the level of the hood.

This doesn't make sense though. If the father stopped, then the daughter should have stopped too. The only way it makes sense is that the father was behind the daughter and the driver didn't see the kid. He saw the father some yards away from the intersection and thought it was clear.

To add to this, if the father stopped at the curb but the daughter kept going, then she would have had right of way and the driver would have been charged.

As a driver, if I see a child anywhere near an intersection where I'm stopping, I make sure I stay stopped long enough to ensure that a child is not setting foot into the intersection.

The parents have posted about van/bus size vs. child size so I stand by that I suspect something about the height of the bus was why the driver did not see the child (but again, I still think the driver was insufficiently paying attention).

My spouse would sometimes bike with elementary age DS just in the few blocks of our neighborhood and when he did so, he would lead into the intersection (i.e. ensure intersection clear, car stopped, proceed with son biking right behind). I made them stop after this story. I suspect that is what happened - parent ahead, van stop was technically "complete stop" for parent, but accelerated as soon as parent past hood, but still in street. It explains why multiple accounts have said parent was in crosswalk with child.

That is not enough. As a father, I would stop in the middle of the crosswalk, stand with the bike, with the car stopped and let my DC cross behind me. Cars will not resume motion, after a stop, if there is a person standing with a bike.

As a parent, i will put my life in front of the cars when DC is crossing.

+1

I do this and you are dreaming if you think that this means that drivers will not start driving because they see a person standing with a bike. I have absolutely had drivers honk at me and nip at my heels while I am standing in the crosswalk, blocking the m from hitting my children.

Same. I live in DC, but in a "quiet residential" type area and the drivers are ridiculous. DC also does bare minimum enforcement. In the burbs, growing up, I or friends, as stupid late teen/early 20s drivers, were pulled over fairly frequently (and learned from it!), and it was a very frequent occurrence to see police pull over drivers for anything - running a red light, speeding, and more.

In 15 years of living in this city and I still have yet to even witness DC MPD pull over a driver for a traffic infraction. 15 bleeping years.

We were pulled over once, but it was by Capitol Police, not MPD, and we didn't realize one headlight was out while driving past the Capitol building.

People run up thousands of dollars in tickets and the best wDC can do is find and boot those cars, but even that was nil for awhile because DC reduced the boot team to 2 people until public outcry recently.

No reciprocity with MD and VA drivers means commuters can drive through our city with zero concern for MPD pulling them over and with zero concern for traffic cameras because nothing will ever happen to them, ever.

This is NOT ok.

Drivers speed, run stop signs, kill kids and otherwise drive in an unsafe manner because DC tells them in every way that it is ok for them to do so. They give tickets they don't collect on. Let people with thousands of dollars in tickets renew their registration. Don't cite or in any way punish drivers for hitting people in crosswalks. Design streets that have wide lanes and few physical impediments to speeding and driving dangerously. Force pedestrians to push buttons to cross the street when no driver has ever had to push a button to get through an intersection.

Every one of these things tells drivers that DC thinks that drivers are more important than other road users and drivers act accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Imagine if the government response to road deaths were like the government response to deaths on Metro (in 2009, and there still isn't automatic train operation) and airplanes. Shut it down to cars until we're certain that the system and the vehicle operators are safe.

[Anonymous]

I live in the area of this accident, and also my commute often takes me through this very intersection. I have witness SO MANY dangerous near misses both when I am a pedestrian and when I am driving in the neighborhood. It's out of control, and I see NO signs that the city is taking it seriously.

I have two small kids. DH and I are so so vigilant when they are with us on foot or biking. Yet, I can think of at least half a dozen times just this year that we've had to stop short (in a cross walk, with a walk light) as cars zoom to turn ahead of us, or even just completely blow red lights/stop lights. Like, I am carrying an toddler in my arms, and you still can't be bothered to make a legal stop. It makes me so angry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was driving through Capitol Hill on my way to work the other day. Cute little neighborhood of rowhouses, pedestrians EVERYWHERE, people with their dogs, kids.

I took it easy, drove the speed limit, stopped carefully at every sign. And the person behind me was going to LOSE THEIR freaking mind. Honking, tailing, being as aggressive as possible on a narrow one way street.

Some people are just too important to drive safely.

This happened to me TWICE in my 3 mile commute through NE DC today. The first time was in stand still traffic. I don't know where this lady expected anyone to go, she would not stop honking and trying to cut out from the line of cars. She just got angrier and angrier every time she couldn't do it, you know because of the ONCOMING TRAFFIC on the otherside of the double line...

[Anonymous]

If you just randomly look up car license plates on a DC street to see what tickets they have, I give you one minute before you find someone with a few. I'll give you 5 minutes before you find someone with up to a grand or more. Yet we have a forum with 187 pages of pompous rich NW people angry about a bike lane on CT ave.