Picking up the pieces - how do we address problems were are facing in education?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Laying blame at parents/parenting is not addressing the underlying root cause of the problem: Poverty and addiction.

You have children coming to school hungry, from overcrowded housing with multiple families (remember kids keeping cameras off because they were in the bathroom, the only place they could have quiet from younger siblings?), with no heat in the winter and no AC in the summer, perhaps from families with addiction and abuse and worried about paying the rent and providing food, etc., etc. How exactly are these children expected to learn? They have way to much else on their minds.

And teachers, with way too many students in their classrooms, and covering so many other classrooms, and no planning time, and no money for manipulatives and classroom materials, and watching out for those hungry students, those abused students, and meetings and committees and IEPs and 504s and make sure you are ready for lock down drills, shelter in place, etc.

And then there's the other problem: entitled parents. No further description needed.

Smaller class sizes and less demands on individual teachers would be a great start. Of course payroll/benefits is the largest line item in the budget etc, you have to pay the teachers, paraeducators, food and building service workers, etc. who make up MCPS.

Charters and vouchers are a red herring. Schools have been underfunded for years, despite the person screaming about the 3 billion dollar budget for mcps. They've been underfunded in it for Capital projects, underfunded for salaries, etc. It's been by design. Now you can point to the schools, say they're failing, and demand vouchers. By the way, this pulls more money out of the schools, helping them to fail even faster.

I flat-out do not trust school systems any more and certainly don’t trust them to handle even more money. I have a disabled child. I have become very pro-voucher and pro-charter, even though I wasn’t either pre-pandemic. You can’t gaslight me any more into claiming charter schools won’t educate my kid, because the standard school system has demonstrated that it is entirely uninterested in educating my kid. I might as well fight for charters and vouchers at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s how I addressed the problem we were facing in education.

My child was in a public school through distance learning. Seeing first hand the terrible instruction they were receiving, I took the second job of being my child’s teacher. In math in particular he went ahead at a much faster pace and when we returned in person I asked for a higher grade math placement. It was denied promptly, hence the educational problem we were facing.

The solution came after we switched to a charter school, and he was tested and placed two grades above his current one.

Problem solved!

And your smart kid is now removed from the public school system. I wonder if they care...
I also did homeschool-type activities during distance learning. When my son went back the teacher told me (without me prompting) that since he was so advanced he was getting an opportunity at enrichment by being a "math buddy" to a struggling student. This struggling student was throwing school supplies, making fart noises at my son when he was trying to teach and punched other students (not my son thankfully). My son cried that he hated math now. We ended up pulling him out for private school where he can do his work alone and concentrate. The first thing he said he liked about the new school was "It's so nice and quiet."
I know this isn't the teacher's fault. This comes from much higher up. The struggling student who was throwing things and punching kids should have been in their own classroom and should have had an adult to be the "math buddy", not my child.
Other problems include the time completely wasted on Chromebook games, Wellness activities like meditation to calm kids who are only getting one 15 minute recess, and schools seemingly unconcerned about plummeting test scores. At the local school board meeting they showed the staggering drop, patted themselves on the back about the scores not being even worse, and said "these don't mean much in the context of the pandemic." Why bother testing the kids if the scores don't mean anything? Why send your kids to a building full of professional teachers who are going to watch them put on headphones and mess around with computer games for hours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

Apparently suspension isn't found to improve behavior:

https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/NYC-Suspension-Effects-Behavioral-Academic-Outcomes-August-2021.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

Apparently suspension isn't found to improve behavior:

https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/NYC-Suspension-Effects-Behavioral-Academic-Outcomes-August-2021.pdf

To add: It also isn't found to have any impact on other students.

"The severity of exclusionary disciplinary response has no effect on the behavior, academic outcomes, or attendance of peers in the same grade within the disciplined student’s
school, nor does it have effects on students’ or teachers’ perceptions of school climate."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

Ok, and then what? I have seen suspension go either way...sometimes it is a wake up call and the parent starts taking things more seriously, but more often it's what the kid wants and with the exception of the little ones (<2nd grade) usually the parents just leave them home...kids gets to stay home, parent still goes to work- not a bad gig.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

+1. What do you think a suspension does? It just gives a kid days off from school. Same with inflated grades. Schools give inflated grades to make themselves look good -- it isn't to make the student feel better about themselves. Even if you failed kids out of school, that kid will still continue to live. If they can't get a job, they will just turn to crime to get what they need. Your solutions to holding parents accountable don't do anything to improve the situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

+1. What do you think a suspension does? It just gives a kid days off from school. Same with inflated grades. Schools give inflated grades to make themselves look good -- it isn't to make the student feel better about themselves. Even if you failed kids out of school, that kid will still continue to live. If they can't get a job, they will just turn to crime to get what they need. Your solutions to holding parents accountable don't do anything to improve the situation.

So....what's the solution, then, to the behavioral issues that seem to be causing a whole lot of problems for teachers and other students? I know it's probably "end poverty and addiction" but what about the shorter term?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Laying blame at parents/parenting is not addressing the underlying root cause of the problem: Poverty and addiction.

You have children coming to school hungry, from overcrowded housing with multiple families (remember kids keeping cameras off because they were in the bathroom, the only place they could have quiet from younger siblings?), with no heat in the winter and no AC in the summer, perhaps from families with addiction and abuse and worried about paying the rent and providing food, etc., etc. How exactly are these children expected to learn? They have way to much else on their minds.

And teachers, with way too many students in their classrooms, and covering so many other classrooms, and no planning time, and no money for manipulatives and classroom materials, and watching out for those hungry students, those abused students, and meetings and committees and IEPs and 504s and make sure you are ready for lock down drills, shelter in place, etc.

And then there's the other problem: entitled parents. No further description needed.

Smaller class sizes and less demands on individual teachers would be a great start. Of course payroll/benefits is the largest line item in the budget etc, you have to pay the teachers, paraeducators, food and building service workers, etc. who make up MCPS.

Charters and vouchers are a red herring. Schools have been underfunded for years, despite the person screaming about the 3 billion dollar budget for mcps. They've been underfunded in it for Capital projects, underfunded for salaries, etc. It's been by design. Now you can point to the schools, say they're failing, and demand vouchers. By the way, this pulls more money out of the schools, helping them to fail even faster.

I flat-out do not trust school systems any more and certainly don’t trust them to handle even more money. I have a disabled child. I have become very pro-voucher and pro-charter, even though I wasn’t either pre-pandemic. You can’t gaslight me any more into claiming charter schools won’t educate my kid, because the standard school system has demonstrated that it is entirely uninterested in educating my kid. I might as well fight for charters and vouchers at this point.

Uninterested in educating your kid, or doesn't have the staff to do it? If you recall, MCPS had 90 open positions for special ed teachers in the start of the school year. Why do you think that is? Overworked? Over paperworked? Too many students and not enough teachers and paras? How do you get more of those teachers? You pay them more, and give them fewer students at once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

so we are seeing significant behavior/mental health concerns in schools. getting rid of sel will help that?

[Anonymous]

Bring in the immigrants who grew up in genuine poverty in developing countries, got degrees in marketable areas or became entrepreneurs and are now American UMCs to be mentors to disadvantaged youth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Laying blame at parents/parenting is not addressing the underlying root cause of the problem: Poverty and addiction.

You have children coming to school hungry, from overcrowded housing with multiple families (remember kids keeping cameras off because they were in the bathroom, the only place they could have quiet from younger siblings?), with no heat in the winter and no AC in the summer, perhaps from families with addiction and abuse and worried about paying the rent and providing food, etc., etc. How exactly are these children expected to learn? They have way to much else on their minds.

And teachers, with way too many students in their classrooms, and covering so many other classrooms, and no planning time, and no money for manipulatives and classroom materials, and watching out for those hungry students, those abused students, and meetings and committees and IEPs and 504s and make sure you are ready for lock down drills, shelter in place, etc.

And then there's the other problem: entitled parents. No further description needed.

Smaller class sizes and less demands on individual teachers would be a great start. Of course payroll/benefits is the largest line item in the budget etc, you have to pay the teachers, paraeducators, food and building service workers, etc. who make up MCPS.

Charters and vouchers are a red herring. Schools have been underfunded for years, despite the person screaming about the 3 billion dollar budget for mcps. They've been underfunded in it for Capital projects, underfunded for salaries, etc. It's been by design. Now you can point to the schools, say they're failing, and demand vouchers. By the way, this pulls more money out of the schools, helping them to fail even faster.

I flat-out do not trust school systems any more and certainly don’t trust them to handle even more money. I have a disabled child. I have become very pro-voucher and pro-charter, even though I wasn’t either pre-pandemic. You can’t gaslight me any more into claiming charter schools won’t educate my kid, because the standard school system has demonstrated that it is entirely uninterested in educating my kid. I might as well fight for charters and vouchers at this point.

Uninterested in educating your kid, or doesn't have the staff to do it? If you recall, MCPS had 90 open positions for special ed teachers in the start of the school year. Why do you think that is? Overworked? Over paperworked? Too many students and not enough teachers and paras? How do you get more of those teachers? You pay them more, and give them fewer students at once.

Union rules demand that special ed teachers be paid the same as other teachers though anyone knows the job is infinitely more difficult. They should be paid a differential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Laying blame at parents/parenting is not addressing the underlying root cause of the problem: Poverty and addiction.

You have children coming to school hungry, from overcrowded housing with multiple families (remember kids keeping cameras off because they were in the bathroom, the only place they could have quiet from younger siblings?), with no heat in the winter and no AC in the summer, perhaps from families with addiction and abuse and worried about paying the rent and providing food, etc., etc. How exactly are these children expected to learn? They have way to much else on their minds.

And teachers, with way too many students in their classrooms, and covering so many other classrooms, and no planning time, and no money for manipulatives and classroom materials, and watching out for those hungry students, those abused students, and meetings and committees and IEPs and 504s and make sure you are ready for lock down drills, shelter in place, etc.

And then there's the other problem: entitled parents. No further description needed.

Smaller class sizes and less demands on individual teachers would be a great start. Of course payroll/benefits is the largest line item in the budget etc, you have to pay the teachers, paraeducators, food and building service workers, etc. who make up MCPS.

Charters and vouchers are a red herring. Schools have been underfunded for years, despite the person screaming about the 3 billion dollar budget for mcps. They've been underfunded in it for Capital projects, underfunded for salaries, etc. It's been by design. Now you can point to the schools, say they're failing, and demand vouchers. By the way, this pulls more money out of the schools, helping them to fail even faster.

I flat-out do not trust school systems any more and certainly don’t trust them to handle even more money. I have a disabled child. I have become very pro-voucher and pro-charter, even though I wasn’t either pre-pandemic. You can’t gaslight me any more into claiming charter schools won’t educate my kid, because the standard school system has demonstrated that it is entirely uninterested in educating my kid. I might as well fight for charters and vouchers at this point.

What charters happily accept disabled students? Most try their hardest to get rid of them because they don't have the resources