Picking up the pieces - how do we address problems were are facing in education?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

+1. What do you think a suspension does? It just gives a kid days off from school. Same with inflated grades. Schools give inflated grades to make themselves look good -- it isn't to make the student feel better about themselves. Even if you failed kids out of school, that kid will still continue to live. If they can't get a job, they will just turn to crime to get what they need. Your solutions to holding parents accountable don't do anything to improve the situation.

ideally suspensions lead to expulsions and permanently remove those kids from the classroom

...to go where? I mean, they'll go to another classroom, somewhere else. This doesn't solve your problem of reducing behavioral issues. It conceivably just makes it some other teachers/kids problem.

Alternative schools or online only school where they can be separated from kids who are trying to learn.

Agree. We seem to have decided that graduating students who are functionally illiterate is better than not graduating then - but is it really? For them or for society? It's not better for the other students in their classes who might want to learn something, and it's not better for the teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

+1. What do you think a suspension does? It just gives a kid days off from school. Same with inflated grades. Schools give inflated grades to make themselves look good -- it isn't to make the student feel better about themselves. Even if you failed kids out of school, that kid will still continue to live. If they can't get a job, they will just turn to crime to get what they need. Your solutions to holding parents accountable don't do anything to improve the situation.

ideally suspensions lead to expulsions and permanently remove those kids from the classroom

...to go where? I mean, they'll go to another classroom, somewhere else. This doesn't solve your problem of reducing behavioral issues. It conceivably just makes it some other teachers/kids problem.

Alternative schools or online only school where they can be separated from kids who are trying to learn.

Alternative schools are schools, with other students and teachers. What do you mean?

Online only school requires a parent at home. When that's not available, kids are in schools. So again, not solving the problem.

It's solving the problem for the 95% of kids who want to learn and need an environment free of violence and major disruptions. I'm not sure that anything is likely to solve the problem for the kids whose behavior is so bad that they would be expelled from a regular school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smaller class sizes would go a long way to fixing many of the other issues.

Which requires more teachers who do not exist.

Teachers are out there; they just don’t want to work under the current conditions, one of which (at least in this area) is large class sizes. If you build it, they will come.

Large classes, while not ideal, is not the main problem in my opinion. Far too lenient grading and behavior policies are the main issue. The required retake policy, the minimum 50% policy (at least in my district) and the inability to remove or punish problem students. Its not fair to the teachers or the other students, and its not doing any favors for the student in question, either. If you solved all of that, large classes would be more workable, IMO.

Are you a teacher? Why do retakes ruin education?

DP. Retakes for some things can be useful, but MCPS is hosting retakepalooza. Students are redoing things 3 more times without much thought about making an earnest effort the first time or using the teacher’s feedback the subsequent times. Rightfully, some have figured out that at least some teachers will eventually give up and give them the desired, but unearned A.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the solutions here just expect schools to fix society’s problems. Solutions:
-Pay teachers more to stem the immediate threat of lack of staff.
-Hold kids and parents accountable. Seriously, kids and parents have become master manipulators to avoid consequences.
-Get rid of SEL, most non-data driven initiatives. Most teachers don’t believe in them and view them as a distraction. Longitudinal studies are finally coming out that schools can’t teach this stuff well enough to have any impact.
-Get rid of 50% rules. Parents wonder why their kid isn’t doing work yet still passes classes.
-Put pressure on corporations and govt to increase salaries. The major driver of the educational issues is poverty.

What do you mean by holding parents accountable?

I would also like to know. Is PP talking about jailing parents? Taking the kids away from the parents?

DP. I read that to mean, suspending students when necessary (this is a signal to parents that things are serious) and also giving kids real grades instead of inflated ones, as well as giving kids failing grades when they do not earn passing grades. Students who do not do well in school are their parents problem, as well as society's - but right now we are trying hard to hide the problem in the hopes that it will go away. Parents should know where their kids stand instead of being shielded.

I can tell you've not worked in schools. There are SOME parents of children with significant academic/behavioral concerns who have their head in the clouds and just need that wake up call to take responsibility, but many, many (most?) parents of these students KNOW "where their kid stands"...they just don't have the wherewithal or desire to do much about it.

+1. What do you think a suspension does? It just gives a kid days off from school. Same with inflated grades. Schools give inflated grades to make themselves look good -- it isn't to make the student feel better about themselves. Even if you failed kids out of school, that kid will still continue to live. If they can't get a job, they will just turn to crime to get what they need. Your solutions to holding parents accountable don't do anything to improve the situation.

ideally suspensions lead to expulsions and permanently remove those kids from the classroom

...to go where? I mean, they'll go to another classroom, somewhere else. This doesn't solve your problem of reducing behavioral issues. It conceivably just makes it some other teachers/kids problem.

Alternative schools or online only school where they can be separated from kids who are trying to learn.

Alternative schools are schools, with other students and teachers. What do you mean?

Online only school requires a parent at home. When that's not available, kids are in schools. So again, not solving the problem.

It's solving the problem for the 95% of kids who want to learn and need an environment free of violence and major disruptions. I'm not sure that anything is likely to solve the problem for the kids whose behavior is so bad that they would be expelled from a regular school.

Well, presumably with 'violence' you are looking at some aspect of juvenile detention. Which would seem to help with your desire to remove these children from society.

[Anonymous]

So the solution from a few posters here really seems to be more prison-like structures for students with behavior issues. I wonder what age you think that should start. Kindergarten?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the solution from a few posters here really seems to be more prison-like structures for students with behavior issues. I wonder what age you think that should start. Kindergarten?

My DS struggled with behavior and was suspended twice (more like one-and-a-half times) in 1st grade. Second grade was rough but 3rd grade and beyond have been totally fine.

He was really just too young for school and in a different world would have just played, messed around, read books, and started school at 8 rather than 5. I think this would actually solve a lot of problems for a number of kids. The other solution is dropping the everyone-goes-to-college approach to high school. Not sure how to implement either of those ideas, but I think the second one is more realistic and doable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

+1

Or you just opt out. I’ve become a huge supporter of vouchers. I solved the issue of the public system being unwilling to educate my disabled child by pulling out of the system entirely and paying an enormous sum for private education. My kid is now doing very well, thanks to the excellent private education that unwound the damage from public. But that’s not possible for so many other disabled kids. Obviously the schools do not care whatsoever about disabled kids, so it’s now time for vouchers as far as I am concerned.

Politically I’ve done a 180 on education. I could not have predicted that given how much of a supporter I used to be of unions and public schools. I used to be anti-voucher, and anti-charter. I now realize I was an idiot to trust the public education system the way I did.

So to answer OP: my personal solution is to politically advocate for vouchers and charters, anything to give parents more choices. I don’t trust the current system at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

+1

Or you just opt out. I’ve become a huge supporter of vouchers. I solved the issue of the public system being unwilling to educate my disabled child by pulling out of the system entirely and paying an enormous sum for private education. My kid is now doing very well, thanks to the excellent private education that unwound the damage from public. But that’s not possible for so many other disabled kids. Obviously the schools do not care whatsoever about disabled kids, so it’s now time for vouchers as far as I am concerned.

Politically I’ve done a 180 on education. I could not have predicted that given how much of a supporter I used to be of unions and public schools. I used to be anti-voucher, and anti-charter. I now realize I was an idiot to trust the public education system the way I did.

So to answer OP: my personal solution is to politically advocate for vouchers and charters, anything to give parents more choices. I don’t trust the current system at all.

Why are you on this thread if you don't want to fix public schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

The pandemic happened. It sucked.

Trying to blame the fallout on teachers though is misplaced. Your anger towards them is irrational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

+1

Or you just opt out. I’ve become a huge supporter of vouchers. I solved the issue of the public system being unwilling to educate my disabled child by pulling out of the system entirely and paying an enormous sum for private education. My kid is now doing very well, thanks to the excellent private education that unwound the damage from public. But that’s not possible for so many other disabled kids. Obviously the schools do not care whatsoever about disabled kids, so it’s now time for vouchers as far as I am concerned.

Politically I’ve done a 180 on education. I could not have predicted that given how much of a supporter I used to be of unions and public schools. I used to be anti-voucher, and anti-charter. I now realize I was an idiot to trust the public education system the way I did.

So to answer OP: my personal solution is to politically advocate for vouchers and charters, anything to give parents more choices. I don’t trust the current system at all.

Why are you on this thread if you don't want to fix public schools?

I do want to fix public schools (particularly for disabled kids), and I am working on that by advocating for school choice. As far as I am concerned, pushing for education choice is the only way to fix public education at this point. All of the solutions people have talked about above will fail so long as there is no true parental choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

The pandemic happened. It sucked.

Trying to blame the fallout on teachers though is misplaced. Your anger towards them is irrational.

I’m not that PP but wow what an on-point example of the gaslighting that PP correctly identified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

The pandemic happened. It sucked.

Trying to blame the fallout on teachers though is misplaced. Your anger towards them is irrational.

I’m not that PP but wow what an on-point example of the gaslighting that PP correctly identified.

It has to be a troll, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

+1

Or you just opt out. I’ve become a huge supporter of vouchers. I solved the issue of the public system being unwilling to educate my disabled child by pulling out of the system entirely and paying an enormous sum for private education. My kid is now doing very well, thanks to the excellent private education that unwound the damage from public. But that’s not possible for so many other disabled kids. Obviously the schools do not care whatsoever about disabled kids, so it’s now time for vouchers as far as I am concerned.

Politically I’ve done a 180 on education. I could not have predicted that given how much of a supporter I used to be of unions and public schools. I used to be anti-voucher, and anti-charter. I now realize I was an idiot to trust the public education system the way I did.

So to answer OP: my personal solution is to politically advocate for vouchers and charters, anything to give parents more choices. I don’t trust the current system at all.

Why are you on this thread if you don't want to fix public schools?

I do want to fix public schools (particularly for disabled kids), and I am working on that by advocating for school choice. As far as I am concerned, pushing for education choice is the only way to fix public education at this point. All of the solutions people have talked about above will fail so long as there is no true parental choice.

I am very confused how you see school choice as the answer when most charters were behind public schools in the DMV area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't trust schools any more. That means I don't trust that they will educate my child. Maybe I should never have trusted they would do that. But I also don't trust that they will stay open in the future and not repeat the damage that school closures did to my child and myself.

What does that mean for anything? Well, it matters to how I vote. It matters to whether I give money to PTO. It matters to whether I invest in anything related to the school beyond my own child's individual needs. It matters to whether I support vouchers and charters.

Does any of that matter? I suppose not.

PP, I understand where you are coming from. If you read any explanation of gaslighting, it's obvious that this type of psychological and emotional abuse is rampant in school discussions. It's not about whether the closure decisions were right or wrong - they are history. But it's hard to heal without acknowledging some of the fallout from the pandemic (and school closures). We are told to get therapy, called crazy, told that we are overreacting, and not credible. What happened to our kids was our fault, and if we were better parents, we would not have anxious, depressed, or failing kids. You can't be in a healthy relationship if you are being gaslit, and that's a problem.

The pandemic happened. It sucked.

Trying to blame the fallout on teachers though is misplaced. Your anger towards them is irrational.

No one mentioned teachers. No one blamed teachers.