COGAT Scores

[Anonymous]

Level III LA is kind of a joke at our school. They get one hour pull-outs, maybe once a week, if the AART isn’t too busy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading


Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

To add we are at Center School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our school AART teacher said the lowest score she saw in the accepted students last year is 142. That seems unrealistic high for me.

She probably mis-spoke and meant to say 132. That number would make sense for a higher-SES school.

I doubt she mis-spoke, there are schools where a 142 would be the norm.

Which is why the test scores have become meaningless and irrelevant. Parents broke them.

I am not so sure parents broke them. My kid goes to a very high SES school (i.e. 1% of kids are free an reduced meals), and he scored right around there. All we did was some practice problems from a $5 workbook. We did not even finish the workbook because it was clear he understood. I really don’t know any of his friends who were going to test prep places and we do lots of car pools for activities, so I am looped into a lot of family schedules. I would not doubt many of his friends also scored that high. They are smart kids. There are just a lot of really smart and accomplished people around here. Intelligence is due both to heredity and environment, the latter of which means so much more than an hour of test prep. Kids in this school have a lot going for them without a lot of prep.

I am glad America will have these future leaders. Why is that a bad thing? We should celebrate their emerging capacity.

To sum: The lies we tell ourselves to justify prepping for aptitude tests.

Eh, I can fully buy that there are kids who score high with the workbooks and no prep classes. Kids whose parents have been reading to them and finding ways for them to practice math are in a better place for the CoGAT, regardless of prep. We know that higher SES families are more likely to have been reading to kids and practicing math. I know that there are parents who send their kids to prep classes but not every high score is a prep class. The work books are effective and less expensive.

I don’t buy the CoGAT as an IQ test because it is too easily influenced.

This. The CogAT is an achievement test, not an IQ test. It's scaled like an IQ test and there's a correlation between CogAT and WISC scores, but kids in higher-performing schools who've had more enrichment at home will score better, even without actual prep. FCPS absolutely did the right thing by establishing local norms.

I hate to tell you guys but did I an NNAT and COGAT prep books myself, as an adult, and these most certainly ARE IQ tests. There is not just a correlation - it is an extremely extremely high correlation. HAve you never taken an IQ test to not know that the problems they give you are the exact same problems?! https://www.hmhco.com/~/media/sites/home/hmh-assessments/assessments/cogat/pdf/cogat-cognitively-speaking-v6-winter-2008.pdf?la=en

I hate to tell you this, but you're flat out wrong. The CogAT is absolutely not an IQ test. A simple google search for "Is the CogAT an IQ test will turn up numerous sites that explicitly state that it is not.

There is some similarity between CogAT problems and IQ problems. The CogAT certainly doesn't assess enough domains and isn't thorough enough to give an IQ. At best, it would be the cliff notes version of an IQ test, but it really isn't even that.

The correlation between NNAT and Raven Progressive Matrices, which measures IQ, is 0.84 my friend. You can't get much higher than that - even test-retest correlations on the same IQ test aren't typically higher than that. Can't find it for CogAT but presumably the nonverbal correlation would be equally high given that NNAT is generally perceived as less reliable
https://alpha-psychiatry.com/Content/files/sayilar/121/AP_20210799_nlm_new_indd.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading

Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

To add we are at Center School

Chances probably aren't great at a Center school, although even Center schools vary in their competitiveness. That said, a lot will depend on the teacher and what they think. You need a really good writing sample for the application package. Ideally this will come from the school rather than you, since school-provided samples carry more weight. At a minimum, I'd say you have a very strong case for advanced math.

It may be that your kid is one of those who struggled with the pictures in the verbal section. If all else fails, I think they can re-take the CogAT in 3rd grade. Pretty sure the 3rd grade version has no pictures. Lots of kids apply and get in a year or more late.

[Anonymous]

Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

Does your teacher think your kid is gifted? It’s pretty clear GBRS mean more than high scores. Especially when they are at a school with a lot of prep personnel .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading


Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

Do you mind if I ask is there “receiving level II service” marked on your DC’s 1st quarter report card? Does it specify it’s for language art? We have that marked on report card but didn’t specify which subject. I thought it may be helpful to show AART your DC is good at Language art.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading


Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

Do you mind if I ask is there “receiving level II service” marked on your DC’s 1st quarter report card? Does it specify it’s for language art? We have that marked on report card but didn’t specify which subject. I thought it may be helpful to show AART your DC is good at Language art.

Till last year they used to say “your child was assessed on reading standards using : above grade level materials…. This was on top of language arts section on report card. However starting this year they removed that even if services were provided.

Level of advanced academic services was/is seperate section but doesn’t tell in which subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading


Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

Do you mind if I ask is there “receiving level II service” marked on your DC’s 1st quarter report card? Does it specify it’s for language art? We have that marked on report card but didn’t specify which subject. I thought it may be helpful to show AART your DC is good at Language art.

Till last year they used to say “your child was assessed on reading standards using : above grade level materials…. This was on top of language arts section on report card. However starting this year they removed that even if services were provided.

Level of advanced academic services was/is seperate section but doesn’t tell in which subject.

You’re right, we have the same here so I plan to include last year’s report card just so they can see the above grade level in language art.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

You should be good with that VQN, but it will be important that the GBRS and school-provided work samples align with the test scores. Scores that high could be considered a red flag for prepping (particularly if you're in an area known for prepping) and have the potential to work against you if the other application materials don't corroborate a high level of giftedness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NNAT 141

Cogat
Qty- 134
Non verbal-123
Verbal- 109
VQN - 128

Kid is in AAP II for reading


Surprised that verbal came so low.

Thoughts on how we refer and chances?

Do you mind if I ask is there “receiving level II service” marked on your DC’s 1st quarter report card? Does it specify it’s for language art? We have that marked on report card but didn’t specify which subject. I thought it may be helpful to show AART your DC is good at Language art.

Till last year they used to say “your child was assessed on reading standards using : above grade level materials…. This was on top of language arts section on report card. However starting this year they removed that even if services were provided.

Level of advanced academic services was/is seperate section but doesn’t tell in which subject.

You’re right, we have the same here so I plan to include last year’s report card just so they can see the above grade level in language art.

You dont have to include it. It will automatically be included by the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

You should be good with that VQN, but it will be important that the GBRS and school-provided work samples align with the test scores. Scores that high could be considered a red flag for prepping (particularly if you're in an area known for prepping) and have the potential to work against you if the other application materials don't corroborate a high level of giftedness.

The kid has all 4s in grade 1 and 1q grade 2. I have no idea what the teacher will write in GBRS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

You should be good with that VQN, but it will be important that the GBRS and school-provided work samples align with the test scores. Scores that high could be considered a red flag for prepping (particularly if you're in an area known for prepping) and have the potential to work against you if the other application materials don't corroborate a high level of giftedness.

The kid has all 4s in grade 1 and 1q grade 2. I have no idea what the teacher will write in GBRS.

Right. Didn't mean to imply that you have control over the teacher contributions--just trying to manage expectations. Five+ years ago, test scores were much more important and there probably would have been no question. Nowadays, it's more of a crapshoot and can be really teacher-dependent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Center school, high SES
Nnat 155
Vqn 155
Verbal 132

Chances? Thx

You should be good with that VQN, but it will be important that the GBRS and school-provided work samples align with the test scores. Scores that high could be considered a red flag for prepping (particularly if you're in an area known for prepping) and have the potential to work against you if the other application materials don't corroborate a high level of giftedness.

The kid has all 4s in grade 1 and 1q grade 2. I have no idea what the teacher will write in GBRS.

Right. Didn't mean to imply that you have control over the teacher contributions--just trying to manage expectations. Five+ years ago, test scores were much more important and there probably would have been no question. Nowadays, it's more of a crapshoot and can be really teacher-dependent.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VQN 131 and NNAT 160. Any chance?

I would think there is a good chance based on that NNAT score.

The NNAT is barely considered at this point. The last evaluation of the AAP application process found that the NNAT carried no weight in the actual decision to include a student in AAP or not. The CogAT was nire important and GBRS were the most important. The NNAT score will help the child be in-pool and that is about it. The 131 CogAT score is close to the 132 threhold that was the "gold standard" a few years back for being in-pool and is probably more important. A high NNAT followed by a drop in the CogAT probably points to a kid who guessed well on the NNAT with the CogAT being more reflective of the child's ability. Just like a lower NNAT with a 15-20 point bump points to a child who was most likely prepped for the CogAT. In this case, the CogAT is still high, 97th or 98th percentile I think, and on the cusp of being in-pool in the past. I don't think the discrepancy will be a big deal.

The poster who metioned the Quant score is pretty on point. The committee is looking for kids who can handle the LA and the Advanced Math. Take a look at the thread where parents are asking about their kids struggling with the math in third grade. The math is accelerated in AAP and jumps a full grade level in 5th grade. The committee wants to make sure that kids are able to handle that jump so the Quant score is important. There are plenty of parents on this board who will say that the math in AAP is too slow but they tend to be the overall outliers. A good number of kids find the math challenging and some struggle with it. Finding a kid who is strong in LA but who will not be overwhelmed with the math in important. It is part of the reason why some of us think that FCPS needs and Advanced LA and Advanced Math distinction, so the kids who are strong in one of the areas has a good fit for them. Right now it feels like there is a push to jam kids who are strong in LA into LIV even if they don't have the math chops because the LA and Social Studies component of Gen Ed is too slow.

I know it is off topic but the ideal, for me, would be Advanced Math and Advanced LA. Kids who qualify for both are accepted into LIV, otherwise they attend the Advanced program in their strength. There would be fewer LIV kids but the program would be more flexible and meet more kids needs.

I'm new to this, but isn't this why we have Level III? My kid's teacher talked about recommending my son for advanced math but not going for full Level IV because the advanced LA might be too much.

Level III is once a week for an hour at schools that actually prioritize Level III services. A good number of schools do not prioritize Level III services so it rarely happens or for only 30 minutes at a time. Advanced Math is a specific program that is 5 days a week during math. It has a set curriculum and leads to kids skipping to sixth grade math in fifth grade. Advanced LA, in my ideal and totally fictional world, would work like Advanced Math. It would be 5 days a week and have a set curriculum that would allow kids who are ahead in reading and writing to continue at a pace that makes sense for them. That does not happen at this time.