law school?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

Copying and pasting all your comments for next time I need to explain survivor bias to someone.

Copy and pasting all your comments for the next time that I need to explain why playing the victim card will get your nowhere.

If you're not capable of going to law school and being a solo attorney, don't do it. For those that are interested, the comments are incredibly helpful. You don't seem cut out for it, PP

I have made far more money than you in biglaw, thanks to my good luck. Many of my peers have had a hard time, thanks to less good luck. Hard work is only part of the story. My cleaning lady works harder than you or I ever will.

And here it is. The not-so-subtle arrogance of the DCUM big law posters. Have you read any part of the thread where I said - multiple times - that a solo path was but one avenue for a law career and the over emphasis on prestige of law school was, IMO, misplaced? I find it insightful that so many big law DCUMers, like yourself, take issue with that statement. It is the truth. The majority of attys are not big law, and we do just fine. I also find it odd that there are so many people averse to being an entrepreneur.

Enjoy your money, PP. I'm sure that by virtue of luck (perhaps birth?) you deserved it. And BTW, my family - you know, the Hispanic cleaning ladies, food workers, and laborers you like to use as your token hapless - are huge supporters of entrepreneurial ventures. They all run a small business. It's the only way for immigrant families. We don't all have big law in our back pockets.

What type of law practice? PI, collections?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

EPA is starving for attorneys, there’s been a lot of recent turnover. You need to show commitment to the mission. Most Fed attorney jobs don’t hire right out of law school though, but you definitely don’t need to go to a T14 school to get there. If he’s committed to environmental law, he should also check out Vermont Law School and Pace. uMD hs a good environmental program too.

Ugh. Do not go to Pace under any circumstance. Terrible advice. Do not go to Vermont or UMD unless you can basically go for free and have strong ties to the state.

I work at Interior and we routinely hire people from VLS.

+1 I'm at EPA and we hire a lot of VLS

The issue is not job placement at the top of the class at VLS, but those who are lower in the class.

[Anonymous]

I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

EPA is starving for attorneys, there’s been a lot of recent turnover. You need to show commitment to the mission. Most Fed attorney jobs don’t hire right out of law school though, but you definitely don’t need to go to a T14 school to get there. If he’s committed to environmental law, he should also check out Vermont Law School and Pace. uMD hs a good environmental program too.

Ugh. Do not go to Pace under any circumstance. Terrible advice. Do not go to Vermont or UMD unless you can basically go for free and have strong ties to the state.

I work at Interior and we routinely hire people from VLS.

+1 I'm at EPA and we hire a lot of VLS

The issue is not job placement at the top of the class at VLS, but those who are lower in the class.

I don’t think we’re talking about the low end of the class based on OPs post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

EPA is starving for attorneys, there’s been a lot of recent turnover. You need to show commitment to the mission. Most Fed attorney jobs don’t hire right out of law school though, but you definitely don’t need to go to a T14 school to get there. If he’s committed to environmental law, he should also check out Vermont Law School and Pace. uMD hs a good environmental program too.

Ugh. Do not go to Pace under any circumstance. Terrible advice. Do not go to Vermont or UMD unless you can basically go for free and have strong ties to the state.

I work at Interior and we routinely hire people from VLS.

+1 I'm at EPA and we hire a lot of VLS

The issue is not job placement at the top of the class at VLS, but those who are lower in the class.

I don’t think we’re talking about the low end of the class based on OPs post.

Everyone who decided to go to law school needs a plan for if they are in the bottom 50% or bottom 25% of their class. You can't guarantee that you'll be a superstar. Even one class where you don't see eye-to-eye with a professor or where you misread an exam question or are sick during the exam can sink your GPA to a huge extent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There aren’t any cheap public law schools anymore. UVA OOS is now $98+ a year and being instate shaves off only a few thousand. Google it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

No. Employers generally do not care about the specialities for a variety of reasons. First, because law school class work and real legal work are very different. Second, first year classes are all the same general legal classes (torts, contracts, etc.) and that is what big law recruits off of. Third, the professors teaching the speciality classes often won’t have much of any practical experience in the subject, so they lack the connections to help students get jobs in that specialty. Finally, it would help show interest for non-big law jobs but so would an internship, UG major in that field, or prior work experience in that field. If the law schools are similarly situated rank, cost and location wise, then a speciality program could be a tie breaker. Otherwise, law school rank, cost and allocation you want to practice in are the biggest factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

No. Employers generally do not care about the specialities for a variety of reasons. First, because law school class work and real legal work are very different. Second, first year classes are all the same general legal classes (torts, contracts, etc.) and that is what big law recruits off of. Third, the professors teaching the speciality classes often won’t have much of any practical experience in the subject, so they lack the connections to help students get jobs in that specialty. Finally, it would help show interest for non-big law jobs but so would an internship, UG major in that field, or prior work experience in that field. If the law schools are similarly situated rank, cost and location wise, then a speciality program could be a tie breaker. Otherwise, law school rank, cost and allocation you want to practice in are the biggest factors.

thanks, my DD is interested in bioethics, and is a bioethics minor (major not offered). She wants to potentially do a dual degree JD/MA in the field. Looking at the list of top "health care law schools", there are some on there who are the usual suspects) but also some that are less expensive such as UMD right in the mix for this particular speciality. If she is ultimately going to look for a position as a clinical ethicist in a hospital or working in a law firm representing hospitals, the prospective employers would still weight overall ranking more than specialty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There aren’t any cheap public law schools anymore. UVA OOS is now $98+ a year and being instate shaves off only a few thousand. Google it

Great. But most people aren't going to UVA law. There are cheap options where people can do well. DCUM just has to get out of the mindset that there are only two things to do with a law career - big law and govt'.
See - https://www.stilt.com/blog/2018/11/cheapest-law-schools/

And I'll preempt all the PPs that will say, but you cannot get a job by graduating from any of the schools listed here. That is just not true. And you graduate with considerably less debt.

[Anonymous]

I have a family FULL of lawyers and none went to a top15. Only one was unsuccessful and switched fields. Seven work a variety of jobs --including one in government and one big law (but took a different road to get there). One does title work and seems to make a lot of money by the multiple vacation homes that they have. One lives in DC and works as an immigration lawyer -- doesn't seem to have too much money but seems super happy and travels a lot to interesting places. The field may be oversupplied but you can still find your way even without working 80hrs a week and paying off debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

No. Employers generally do not care about the specialities for a variety of reasons. First, because law school class work and real legal work are very different. Second, first year classes are all the same general legal classes (torts, contracts, etc.) and that is what big law recruits off of. Third, the professors teaching the speciality classes often won’t have much of any practical experience in the subject, so they lack the connections to help students get jobs in that specialty. Finally, it would help show interest for non-big law jobs but so would an internship, UG major in that field, or prior work experience in that field. If the law schools are similarly situated rank, cost and location wise, then a speciality program could be a tie breaker. Otherwise, law school rank, cost and allocation you want to practice in are the biggest factors.

thanks, my DD is interested in bioethics, and is a bioethics minor (major not offered). She wants to potentially do a dual degree JD/MA in the field. Looking at the list of top "health care law schools", there are some on there who are the usual suspects) but also some that are less expensive such as UMD right in the mix for this particular speciality. If she is ultimately going to look for a position as a clinical ethicist in a hospital or working in a law firm representing hospitals, the prospective employers would still weight overall ranking more than specialty?

She should not choose a law school based on specialty. She should also be very, very careful about JD/MA programs. She'll have a huge amount of debt and not be a good fit for entry level jobs. She needs to decide if she's going to be a lawyer or a clinical ethicist. If she chooses to be a lawyer, she'll need to find a first job practicing law at a law firm to get training. Most in house positions, such as at a hospital, are only open to those who have several years of experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

No. Employers generally do not care about the specialities for a variety of reasons. First, because law school class work and real legal work are very different. Second, first year classes are all the same general legal classes (torts, contracts, etc.) and that is what big law recruits off of. Third, the professors teaching the speciality classes often won’t have much of any practical experience in the subject, so they lack the connections to help students get jobs in that specialty. Finally, it would help show interest for non-big law jobs but so would an internship, UG major in that field, or prior work experience in that field. If the law schools are similarly situated rank, cost and location wise, then a speciality program could be a tie breaker. Otherwise, law school rank, cost and allocation you want to practice in are the biggest factors.

thanks, my DD is interested in bioethics, and is a bioethics minor (major not offered). She wants to potentially do a dual degree JD/MA in the field. Looking at the list of top "health care law schools", there are some on there who are the usual suspects) but also some that are less expensive such as UMD right in the mix for this particular speciality. If she is ultimately going to look for a position as a clinical ethicist in a hospital or working in a law firm representing hospitals, the prospective employers would still weight overall ranking more than specialty?

She should not choose a law school based on specialty. She should also be very, very careful about JD/MA programs. She'll have a huge amount of debt and not be a good fit for entry level jobs. She needs to decide if she's going to be a lawyer or a clinical ethicist. If she chooses to be a lawyer, she'll need to find a first job practicing law at a law firm to get training. Most in house positions, such as at a hospital, are only open to those who have several years of experience.

I am a practicing lawyer, working in house. This is exactly correct. +1

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Anonymous wrote:I know there are alot of lawyers on this board, and I also know that there was a glut of lawyers in recent years making it a risky endeavor at high cost. What type of kid or specialty would you suggest going to law school nowadays? Is it more common to go right to law school or work a bit first? I'm talking about attendance to a top 30 ranked law school, not a no name law school. DC is interested in environmental law as well as pubic policy. He will graduate undergrad from a top 25 university with no debt but we can't help him with grad school costs.

Things to consider?

If you have the qualifications for patent law, or are willing to get them, patent lawyers are in demand.

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Anonymous wrote:I think we’ve gotten a bit off track as usual. What about if someone has a very specific specialty area within the law? Better to go to a school highly rated for that specialty, even if it’s not t14?

No. Employers generally do not care about the specialities for a variety of reasons. First, because law school class work and real legal work are very different. Second, first year classes are all the same general legal classes (torts, contracts, etc.) and that is what big law recruits off of. Third, the professors teaching the speciality classes often won’t have much of any practical experience in the subject, so they lack the connections to help students get jobs in that specialty. Finally, it would help show interest for non-big law jobs but so would an internship, UG major in that field, or prior work experience in that field. If the law schools are similarly situated rank, cost and location wise, then a speciality program could be a tie breaker. Otherwise, law school rank, cost and allocation you want to practice in are the biggest factors.

thanks, my DD is interested in bioethics, and is a bioethics minor (major not offered). She wants to potentially do a dual degree JD/MA in the field. Looking at the list of top "health care law schools", there are some on there who are the usual suspects) but also some that are less expensive such as UMD right in the mix for this particular speciality. If she is ultimately going to look for a position as a clinical ethicist in a hospital or working in a law firm representing hospitals, the prospective employers would still weight overall ranking more than specialty?

She should not choose a law school based on specialty. She should also be very, very careful about JD/MA programs. She'll have a huge amount of debt and not be a good fit for entry level jobs. She needs to decide if she's going to be a lawyer or a clinical ethicist. If she chooses to be a lawyer, she'll need to find a first job practicing law at a law firm to get training. Most in house positions, such as at a hospital, are only open to those who have several years of experience.

I am a practicing lawyer, working in house. This is exactly correct. +1

I currently work in house and have an open job posting for someone on my team with a background in healthcare law. My #1 requirement: 3-5 years of relevant experience at a well respected law firm. After that going to a prestigious law school is helpful, as is an undergraduate degree in a related subject matter. But the #1 factor is getting experience at a good firm. To get into a good firm requires good grades at a top law school or superior grades at a lower ranked law school.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There aren’t any cheap public law schools anymore. UVA OOS is now $98+ a year and being instate shaves off only a few thousand. Google it

Virginia is also a Top 10 law school.