law school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are in-state for any of UVA, UMichigan, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC or UT Austin for law those are great options that should lead to fairly stable careers.

Otherwise, in this economy, you should try your best to get into Harvard Law, Stanford Law, Yale Law, Columbia Law, UChicago Law, Duke Law, UPenn Law, NYU Law, Northwestern Law, or Georgetown Law. Notre Dame, WashU, Cornell, and Banderbilt Law also tend to have great employment options.

UVA is ranked higher than several of the schools in your second paragraph.

As are Michigan and Berkeley. There are three top public law schools that more prestigious than quite a few of the privates listed above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Yes there are other legal careers. But again the only career that would make a financial sense and pay off are either working for the BigLaw or being a partner. I haven’t seen many in house counsels who didn’t start their career at BigLaw. Also how many GS14 employees moved to the senior BigLaw role?

I just don’t think attending a law school and becoming a government or non profit emplolyee is financially a wise choice. And if you don’t start in BigLaw in the first place, most likley you will never become an in house counsel and move to a senior BigLaw role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Yes there are other legal careers. But again the only career that would make a financial sense and pay off are either working for the BigLaw or being a partner. I haven’t seen many in house counsels who didn’t start their career at BigLaw. Also how many GS14 employees moved to the senior BigLaw role?

I just don’t think attending a law school and becoming a government or non profit emplolyee is financially a wise choice. And if you don’t start in BigLaw in the first place, most likley you will never become an in house counsel and move to a senior BigLaw role.

This is all mixed up. I think you're confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Yes there are other legal careers. But again the only career that would make a financial sense and pay off are either working for the BigLaw or being a partner. I haven’t seen many in house counsels who didn’t start their career at BigLaw. Also how many GS14 employees moved to the senior BigLaw role?

I just don’t think attending a law school and becoming a government or non profit emplolyee is financially a wise choice. And if you don’t start in BigLaw in the first place, most likley you will never become an in house counsel and move to a senior BigLaw role.

This is all mixed up. I think you're confused.

Well, maybe.

All I am saying is that the government and non profit jobs are not lucarative enough given the cost of law school. And the in-house postions are not realistic for the graduates who didn’t get BigLaw jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TL/DR but would Tulane (or any other school with a big environmental law angle) be an option? They are obviously far from T14, but are big on env. law. Their selow ranking may mean free school for your kid. Or maybe GMU in VA- they have a lot of govt connections and are fairly cheap. Prob free with good stats.

Tulane for Maritime Law only. I would do that. Best in the country.

I know people who went to TU for maritime law- and they were very into environmental law at the time. One had gone to American U for law school then got an llm at Tulane. He ended up working as an attorney in one prez administration. Just telling this long story to make the point that it's not just T14&big law or misery and debt for life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Yes there are other legal careers. But again the only career that would make a financial sense and pay off are either working for the BigLaw or being a partner. I haven’t seen many in house counsels who didn’t start their career at BigLaw. Also how many GS14 employees moved to the senior BigLaw role?

I just don’t think attending a law school and becoming a government or non profit emplolyee is financially a wise choice. And if you don’t start in BigLaw in the first place, most likley you will never become an in house counsel and move to a senior BigLaw role.

This is all mixed up. I think you're confused.

Well, maybe.

All I am saying is that the government and non profit jobs are not lucarative enough given the cost of law school. And the in-house postions are not realistic for the graduates who didn’t get BigLaw jobs.

You are confused. This analysis doesn't make any sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Yes there are other legal careers. But again the only career that would make a financial sense and pay off are either working for the BigLaw or being a partner. I haven’t seen many in house counsels who didn’t start their career at BigLaw. Also how many GS14 employees moved to the senior BigLaw role?

I just don’t think attending a law school and becoming a government or non profit emplolyee is financially a wise choice. And if you don’t start in BigLaw in the first place, most likley you will never become an in house counsel and move to a senior BigLaw role.

This is all mixed up. I think you're confused.

Well, maybe.

All I am saying is that the government and non profit jobs are not lucarative enough given the cost of law school. And the in-house postions are not realistic for the graduates who didn’t get BigLaw jobs.

You are confused. This analysis doesn't make any sense.

As the law school workload does not permit most students to hold jobs, student loans represent the most common method of paying these costs. Consequently, the average law school graduate has over $145,500 in student debt.

...

Graduates of second-tier programs often settle for work outside of top law firms, where the pay is much lower. The 2018 median pay for law school graduates across the board was only $70,000. Idealistic young attorneys who choose public service fare even worse financially. Entry-level prosecuting attorneys earn a median pay of $56,200; public defenders do slightly better at $58,300.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/082416/going-law-school-worth-it-anymore.asp

[Anonymous]

Law school admin -- almost every full-time student I know works in their second and third years of law school. The ABA used to restrict work hours to 20/week for full-time students, but I think they removed that restriction. Several schools have kept that limitation. Don't recall any student who wanted to work 1st year that was prohibited. Back in the old days (mid 90s) I worked about 20 hours a week, sometimes more, at Macy's my first year to make extra money. It didn't impact my studying.

[Anonymous]

The big issue is that top state law schools used to provide a reasonably priced option. I am a UCLA grad from the 90s. It was practically free. The top public law schools are now barely less, and in some cases not less, than private law school.

i don't know what the answer is but students should think long and hard about whether it is worth it. Everything on here about the value to one's career of going to a Top 14 law school is accurate, including that one is taking on a large obligation that may limit future options and BigLaw is neither awesome nor available to all.

I will throw one more out for the crowd, why is it Top 14? That is such a random number. Where did that originate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The big issue is that top state law schools used to provide a reasonably priced option. I am a UCLA grad from the 90s. It was practically free. The top public law schools are now barely less, and in some cases not less, than private law school.

i don't know what the answer is but students should think long and hard about whether it is worth it. Everything on here about the value to one's career of going to a Top 14 law school is accurate, including that one is taking on a large obligation that may limit future options and BigLaw is neither awesome nor available to all.

I will throw one more out for the crowd, why is it Top 14? That is such a random number. Where did that originate?

It's in wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school_rankings_in_the_United_States#Top_14_law_schools

[Anonymous]

This is the T14 now. The gap takes place after Georgetown and before UCLA.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't forget about almost three years of lost income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board when calculating the cost of attending law school.

Law school costs have far outpaced inflation so law grads from a couple of decades ago may not really appreciate & understand why starting out as a solo practitioner or at a small law firm is economically unfeasible for many.

I worked during law school. Most of my friends had PT jobs during the year as law clerks, too. In fact, I don't know many kids who didn't.

Are you willing to share the name of your law school ?

Isn't employment during one's first year of law school prohibited or restricted by the ABA ?

PP. No one worked first year - at least most didn't. EVERYONE worked in 2L and 3L years. I'm surprised to hear that at other law schools the 2Ls and 3Ls didn't work. Was that the case at your school?
And the school cannot really prohibit anything. It's more of a guideline, which is unenforceable.

[Anonymous]

People are so dramatic with law school. Just know if you want to work your butt off at a BigLaw firm making the big money before you go. I knew that was never going to be me as I like work-life balance too much. So I knew I should do law school as cheap as possible. I went to a state law school where I was able to get in state tuition the last 2 years (also got a little scholarship $). Moved to DC where government attorney jobs were plentiful. Within a year out I got myself a job at an agency. Money is fine for the work life balance, mother of 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are so dramatic with law school. Just know if you want to work your butt off at a BigLaw firm making the big money before you go. I knew that was never going to be me as I like work-life balance too much. So I knew I should do law school as cheap as possible. I went to a state law school where I was able to get in state tuition the last 2 years (also got a little scholarship $). Moved to DC where government attorney jobs were plentiful. Within a year out I got myself a job at an agency. Money is fine for the work life balance, mother of 3.

Your example is contrary to the people on this thread saying that agencies ONLY hire T-14 grads. Lol. I also don't get why people are talking about law school loans when everyone in this College forum claims to be 'Full Pay!" Guess that ends with undergrad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are so dramatic with law school. Just know if you want to work your butt off at a BigLaw firm making the big money before you go. I knew that was never going to be me as I like work-life balance too much. So I knew I should do law school as cheap as possible. I went to a state law school where I was able to get in state tuition the last 2 years (also got a little scholarship $). Moved to DC where government attorney jobs were plentiful. Within a year out I got myself a job at an agency. Money is fine for the work life balance, mother of 3.

Your example is contrary to the people on this thread saying that agencies ONLY hire T-14 grads. Lol. I also don't get why people are talking about law school loans when everyone in this College forum claims to be 'Full Pay!" Guess that ends with undergrad?

For many people parental support ends with undergrad, even if they were full pay then. A large majority of first year law students do not go to law school immediately upon graduation.