law school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

Copying and pasting all your comments for next time I need to explain survivor bias to someone.

Copy and pasting all your comments for the next time that I need to explain why playing the victim card will get your nowhere.

If you're not capable of going to law school and being a solo attorney, don't do it. For those that are interested, the comments are incredibly helpful. You don't seem cut out for it, PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There really is no such thing a a cheap law school, especially if you are out of state. https://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition

While it certainly is possible go to a poorly ranked school and subsequently earn a decent living, there are risks which one should certainly take into consideration before investing three years and $150- $200K+. I did not attend a T-14 school, and everything worked out fine for me, but I’m glad my son did. It true that many more lawyers go to non-T-14 schools than go to T-14s and are successful both professionally and financially, quite often wildly so. But there are large numbers of people who find that the investment was not worth it. I think what most posters here are saying is to make a decision on a particular law school with your eyes wide open.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There really is no such thing a a cheap law school, especially if you are out of state. https://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition

While it certainly is possible go to a poorly ranked school and subsequently earn a decent living, there are risks which one should certainly take into consideration before investing three years and $150- $200K+. I did not attend a T-14 school, and everything worked out fine for me, but I’m glad my son did. It true that many more lawyers go to non-T-14 schools than go to T-14s and are successful both professionally and financially, quite often wildly so. But there are large numbers of people who find that the investment was not worth it. I think what most posters here are saying is to make a decision on a particular law school with your eyes wide open.

I think that reiterates what I was saying. My first comment was only go to public, cheap (er) schools as private schools are generally not worth it. I only considered public, in-state schools and would never have considered out of state. My purpose was only to provide commentary on one available - and often overlooked - option with law school. There are numerous career avenues in law, and you have to work for all of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

There really is no such thing a a cheap law school, especially if you are out of state. https://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition

While it certainly is possible go to a poorly ranked school and subsequently earn a decent living, there are risks which one should certainly take into consideration before investing three years and $150- $200K+. I did not attend a T-14 school, and everything worked out fine for me, but I’m glad my son did. It true that many more lawyers go to non-T-14 schools than go to T-14s and are successful both professionally and financially, quite often wildly so. But there are large numbers of people who find that the investment was not worth it. I think what most posters here are saying is to make a decision on a particular law school with your eyes wide open.

I think that reiterates what I was saying. My first comment was only go to public, cheap (er) schools as private schools are generally not worth it. I only considered public, in-state schools and would never have considered out of state. My purpose was only to provide commentary on one available - and often overlooked - option with law school. There are numerous career avenues in law, and you have to work for all of them.

UVA is only 6,000 cheaper in state for law school.

[Anonymous]

Doomsdaying being 50th % at a top 10 school. Most DCUM post I’ve seen in awhile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

EPA is starving for attorneys, there’s been a lot of recent turnover. You need to show commitment to the mission. Most Fed attorney jobs don’t hire right out of law school though, but you definitely don’t need to go to a T14 school to get there. If he’s committed to environmental law, he should also check out Vermont Law School and Pace. uMD hs a good environmental program too.

Ugh. Do not go to Pace under any circumstance. Terrible advice. Do not go to Vermont or UMD unless you can basically go for free and have strong ties to the state.

I work at Interior and we routinely hire people from VLS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

True, but all DCUM sees is Big Law or Fed Law, then talks about how horrible Big Law is. If you pass the Bar, you can hang your own shingle; you don't need to get hired by a law firm. Is it ideal to do that right out of law school? Maybe not, but it's an option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a UCLA law grad from 30 years ago. It was top 14 then, it is apparently number 15 now. I paid peanuts for that degree and it was completely worth it. But tuition is significant now, even instate.

A legal education is incredibly useful and I wish it were an undergraduate option here the way it is in other countries. As a long time very senior fed I have found the biggest law school snobs in the federal government to be in general counsel offices, and sometimes in the offices of agency heads.

Most of the truly stellar attorneys I have worked with (and I have been lucky enough to have worked with a who’s who of lawyers in my niche area) are from top law schools, with a few notable exceptions who worked extremely hard and were very self motivated post law school. Some subject areas have specialty schools outside the top 30 even and students that do well in those a programs can do very well in those areas.

I cannot agree more that minimizing debt is key and the ranking of the program meaning so much more than undergrad.

But the high ranked law schools are a lot more expensive, meaning your debt would be much larger.

[Anonymous]

Just like your starting salary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a UCLA law grad from 30 years ago. It was top 14 then, it is apparently number 15 now. I paid peanuts for that degree and it was completely worth it. But tuition is significant now, even instate.

A legal education is incredibly useful and I wish it were an undergraduate option here the way it is in other countries. As a long time very senior fed I have found the biggest law school snobs in the federal government to be in general counsel offices, and sometimes in the offices of agency heads.

Most of the truly stellar attorneys I have worked with (and I have been lucky enough to have worked with a who’s who of lawyers in my niche area) are from top law schools, with a few notable exceptions who worked extremely hard and were very self motivated post law school. Some subject areas have specialty schools outside the top 30 even and students that do well in those a programs can do very well in those areas.

I cannot agree more that minimizing debt is key and the ranking of the program meaning so much more than undergrad.

But the high ranked law schools are a lot more expensive, meaning your debt would be much larger.

Go to USN and read the top 30 and their tuition rates. University of FL, UNC Chapel Hill, University of GA, George Mason are significantly less than many, tuition between 19-30K/year instead of 56-70K/year. Do what it takes to be in state, maybe go part time so you minimize your debt by working while in law school. UCLA and Berkeley are on the lower end of ridiculously high and if you have to borrow the sticker price that may be too much for many. Look at niche programs where it is a reasonably priced state law school or there are merit scholarships available.

I loved law school and I have had a very rewarding career and frankly a big part of it was dumb luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

EPA is starving for attorneys, there’s been a lot of recent turnover. You need to show commitment to the mission. Most Fed attorney jobs don’t hire right out of law school though, but you definitely don’t need to go to a T14 school to get there. If he’s committed to environmental law, he should also check out Vermont Law School and Pace. uMD hs a good environmental program too.

Ugh. Do not go to Pace under any circumstance. Terrible advice. Do not go to Vermont or UMD unless you can basically go for free and have strong ties to the state.

I work at Interior and we routinely hire people from VLS.

+1 I'm at EPA and we hire a lot of VLS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not a lawyer and no have no idea if my college freshman will want to become a lawyer, but isn't this similar to what any graduate can expect when seeking a job? Some will immediately become gainfully employed, while it may take longer for others. Those who graduate from elite schools may have their first choice of jobs, while those who graduates from a school ranked 500 may take longer to find their place.

Either way, the likelihood is that no recent graduate, and I'd include those from undergrad and graduate schools, is going to remain in their first job for a long time. More likely, they'll bounce around from job to job during their 20s until they find something that sticks for them. So, why does it matter so much where you go to school unless you're aiming for a very niche career path like Wall Street, Big Law, etc.

I just think our kids should go to schools that won't put them or us in debt, where they can mature and START to figure out who and what they want to become in life. I just feel like DCUM especially makes this more complicated than it needs to be because there is so much focus on brand names.

Again, not a lawyer so what do I know.

Google bimodal lawyer salaries to see why that’s not entirely accurate. Law is unusually feast and famine.

Add to this that law can shut you out of other jobs as well. The real issue is that law schools will pump out another crop of law students before the recent graduates all secured jobs.

Employers that hire entry level attorneys only hire the current (or upcoming) graduating class. They won't hire the dregs of the prior class. So if you don't get an offer as you are graduating or shortly after, you likely will never get a job as a lawyer. You end up shut out of entry level employment with a JD that hurts you in applying for non-lawyer jobs. It's not really an option to bounce around for a few years before finding a career like it is after a BA or BS.

Non-lawyer here and sorry if I'm derailing the discussion, but I always thought that having a law degree gives you more options than an MBA or other Masters degree, for example. With a JD, you could become a lawyer but if that doesn't work out for whatever reason, your JD is still valuable in non-lawyer careers, whereas an MBA or other Masters can never be a lawyer. I understand a Masters is usually a 2-year commitment whereas a JD is 3-years, so more time and money, but if you set aside the time and money factor, is it still bad to get a JD if you don't end up becoming a lawyer?

This is mostly a fiction for grads right out of law school. There are some JD optional jobs, but there are also lots of time people consider a JD to be over qualified or who just flat out don't want to work with a lawyer. Law school teaches you to be a lawyer. It doesn't teach you to do non-lawyer things.

(This is not the same a transitioning to a non-lawyer role after years of practicing and you have substantive knowledge of a field or industry to help with the transition.)

+1 those jobs are not interested in fresh JDs. Unless it is some very low paying non lawyer job. Most lawyers in non-legal well-paying jobs, including many leadership roles, transitioned like PP described.

Also, the kind of recent law grad that could get an MBA-type job at McKinsey etc could easily get a job in biglaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not a lawyer and no have no idea if my college freshman will want to become a lawyer, but isn't this similar to what any graduate can expect when seeking a job? Some will immediately become gainfully employed, while it may take longer for others. Those who graduate from elite schools may have their first choice of jobs, while those who graduates from a school ranked 500 may take longer to find their place.

Either way, the likelihood is that no recent graduate, and I'd include those from undergrad and graduate schools, is going to remain in their first job for a long time. More likely, they'll bounce around from job to job during their 20s until they find something that sticks for them. So, why does it matter so much where you go to school unless you're aiming for a very niche career path like Wall Street, Big Law, etc.

I just think our kids should go to schools that won't put them or us in debt, where they can mature and START to figure out who and what they want to become in life. I just feel like DCUM especially makes this more complicated than it needs to be because there is so much focus on brand names.

Again, not a lawyer so what do I know.

Google bimodal lawyer salaries to see why that’s not entirely accurate. Law is unusually feast and famine.

Add to this that law can shut you out of other jobs as well. The real issue is that law schools will pump out another crop of law students before the recent graduates all secured jobs.

Employers that hire entry level attorneys only hire the current (or upcoming) graduating class. They won't hire the dregs of the prior class. So if you don't get an offer as you are graduating or shortly after, you likely will never get a job as a lawyer. You end up shut out of entry level employment with a JD that hurts you in applying for non-lawyer jobs. It's not really an option to bounce around for a few years before finding a career like it is after a BA or BS.

Non-lawyer here and sorry if I'm derailing the discussion, but I always thought that having a law degree gives you more options than an MBA or other Masters degree, for example. With a JD, you could become a lawyer but if that doesn't work out for whatever reason, your JD is still valuable in non-lawyer careers, whereas an MBA or other Masters can never be a lawyer. I understand a Masters is usually a 2-year commitment whereas a JD is 3-years, so more time and money, but if you set aside the time and money factor, is it still bad to get a JD if you don't end up becoming a lawyer?

Another non-lawyer here, whose husband is a lawyer and has spent his 25 years as a lawyer telling people who are considering law school that the bolded is absolutely not true. A JD is not a flexible degree. You should only go to law school if you actually want to be a lawyer, because people don’t want to hire lawyers for jobs where they’re not going to be lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

Copying and pasting all your comments for next time I need to explain survivor bias to someone.

Copy and pasting all your comments for the next time that I need to explain why playing the victim card will get your nowhere.

If you're not capable of going to law school and being a solo attorney, don't do it. For those that are interested, the comments are incredibly helpful. You don't seem cut out for it, PP

I have made far more money than you in biglaw, thanks to my good luck. Many of my peers have had a hard time, thanks to less good luck. Hard work is only part of the story. My cleaning lady works harder than you or I ever will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

PP here -- this is impressive. What kind of marketing did you do to make the steady climb? I would love to do this but don't think I currently have the portable book to make it more profitable than what I'm doing now, unless perhaps I took on my own contract work. What % do you pay your contractor? Sorry to derail the thread, but it does show OP that there is more than Big Law and Gov Law.

I pay the contractor a flat fee per project. She has given me a fee schedule per case. Because of the type of work we do, it's usually flat fee. However, I don't send out work that often - maybe a few a year. I don't do any marketing now. It's all client referral. The first few years, I tried marketing via online sources that yielded little. The key to solo practice is sticking in the game because it takes a while for the referral pipeline to build up. Salaries were Y1 $20K (but I started mid-year); Y2 $65K; Y3 $80; Y5 $111 Y6$132....Y10 $320K....Y12 $425(est). There are big bumps in some years because I gained large corp clients in some years, or COVID. I'm anticipating that I will level off, or have to hire someone bc I'm at max of what solo can handle.

And yes, there's so much more to law than just the govt & big law discussion. 80% of the attys that I know do something similar to what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I didn't start out in DC metro. Anyway, solo, small to mid size firms should not be overlooked. I have been at home virtually working for past 10 years. I've raised my kids and controlled my own time. I don't think that I'm missed out too much career ways because law is so flexible. Just something to think about, OP.

So you opened a solo practice straight out of law school? No prior legal experience? Did you have loans? What year was this?

No, I worked for a firm where I gained experience in my field of expertise for about 2 years. I did not start my firm with a book of business, though, as I'd left to have a baby. Yes, I had loans - about $80K. It was 2011. In the first few years, I had to do contract work on the side to supplement income until I got to a level where my practice was making enough to support me.

Ok. So your anecdote is completely dependent on law grads finding an entry level position to learn the trade. Pretty much no one opens a solo practice straight out of law school. The risk of a lower tier school is never finding that entry level job.

That is complete nonsense. Lower tier grads find jobs all the time. And that is my point. The posters on here just assume that the ONLY jobs are the prestigious law firms in downtown DC when, in fact, the vast majority of law firms in this country are small-mid sized firms. I worked at one of those. My first job was a small firm with 4 employees. The problem is that people on here thumb their noses at small firms as if that experience is neither good enough or helpful to the resume which could not be further from the truth.

And no one said opening a solo practice is dependent on getting a firm job first. I know plenty of attys who went solo straight out of school. There are a number of different paths. You just have to be entrepreneurial enough to find them.

Lots may find jobs. Lots also don't. That's what the data says. Lots of grads from lower tier schools with big loans and no job.

Which is why - upthread - I said to go to a cheap, public law school. Rankings are unimportant just be able to pay for it. And btw, there are lots of unemployed people from expensive grad schools - not just lawyers - so this advise could go to any graduate student, whether they're seeking a JD from an expensive school or a potential MFA from Wesleyan.

There are so many posters on DCUM who tell you all the things that you can't do. I'm offering OP an example of what you can if you're willing to work for it. You can go to a no-name, poorly ranked school and still make a decent living. It is all what you make out of it. If I had listened to DCUM 10 years ago, I'd still be sitting as an employee at a job I hated being miserable. Thank god there was no DCUM for me back then

Copying and pasting all your comments for next time I need to explain survivor bias to someone.

Copy and pasting all your comments for the next time that I need to explain why playing the victim card will get your nowhere.

If you're not capable of going to law school and being a solo attorney, don't do it. For those that are interested, the comments are incredibly helpful. You don't seem cut out for it, PP

I have made far more money than you in biglaw, thanks to my good luck. Many of my peers have had a hard time, thanks to less good luck. Hard work is only part of the story. My cleaning lady works harder than you or I ever will.

And here it is. The not-so-subtle arrogance of the DCUM big law posters. Have you read any part of the thread where I said - multiple times - that a solo path was but one avenue for a law career and the over emphasis on prestige of law school was, IMO, misplaced? I find it insightful that so many big law DCUMers, like yourself, take issue with that statement. It is the truth. The majority of attys are not big law, and we do just fine. I also find it odd that there are so many people averse to being an entrepreneur.

Enjoy your money, PP. I'm sure that by virtue of luck (perhaps birth?) you deserved it. And BTW, my family - you know, the Hispanic cleaning ladies, food workers, and laborers you like to use as your token hapless - are huge supporters of entrepreneurial ventures. They all run a small business. It's the only way for immigrant families. We don't all have big law in our back pockets.