law school?

[Anonymous]

Attend top 10 or don't attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Attend top 10 or don't attend.

Ha ha ok. Just because you said so.

[Anonymous]

Example, an Environmental Lawyer with both undergrad and grad degrees from Cornell works in upstate NY with farmers. Would this be of interest?

[Anonymous]

I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

And to add, go to law school but don't spend too much money on it. That's the best piece of advice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

And to add, go to law school but don't spend too much money on it. That's the best piece of advice

Thanks, appreciate your perspective. As i said, he will be on his own for $$ so he will have to go somewhere he gets money or is relatively inexpensive (though where is that?). He is not going to be a BigLaw guy. He is definitely more on the "do gooder" side that the "make money at all costs" side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

And to add, go to law school but don't spend too much money on it. That's the best piece of advice

Thanks, appreciate your perspective. As i said, he will be on his own for $$ so he will have to go somewhere he gets money or is relatively inexpensive (though where is that?). He is not going to be a BigLaw guy. He is definitely more on the "do gooder" side that the "make money at all costs" side.

My brother goes to CUNY law and it is CHEAP. Like well under $20k a year. They track very well into low paid do-gooder jobs in NYC. If he's sure of that niche, there are options, but it might not be as good for the "it turns out I really love negotiating credit card contracts for insane sums of money" pivots that a lot of my friends from college made. (Not a lawyer, but wish I were given their incomes!)

[Anonymous]

The public or scholarship route works if you want to stay in the region where there are alot of grads at firms from those schools. It is not a good plan if you mean to move before you are an established practitioner. For example many firms in DC hire GW grads and they do well in this region - might not be the case right out of law school if you wanted to go to NE or somewhere on the west coast. And GW is ranked 25th - same holds even more true the further down the list you go. you can easily see this by looking at firm websites and searching for lawyers from a particular law school which is usually a filter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

I’m an environmental lawyer and I agree with this wholeheartedly. I lucked into my dream job and I love practicing environmental law, but I could just have easily needed up doing clean water act enforcement work for EPA (negotiating and collecting fines) and hated my job. Or CERCLA defense. It’s all environmental law.

Most environmental lawyers work closely with other professionals - so there are many other professional paths to do the type of work he wants to do, once he figures out what that is. I’m a fed and the environmental protection specialists at my agency do much more of the “front line” environmental work. They have various degrees (mostly BS but some BAs and a few MS or MA), make nearly as much as I do, and we’re out of debt much more quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

I have a government spot practicing environmental law and I graduated with honors from a T50 (15 years ago). Our recent hires have been from a variety of schools. Yale/Harvard grads always get an interview, but don’t always get a job.

I did benefit from public service loan forgiveness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

And to add, go to law school but don't spend too much money on it. That's the best piece of advice

Thanks, appreciate your perspective. As i said, he will be on his own for $$ so he will have to go somewhere he gets money or is relatively inexpensive (though where is that?). He is not going to be a BigLaw guy. He is definitely more on the "do gooder" side that the "make money at all costs" side.

This is not the way to think about law school at all. Do Gooder employers are often the most prestige-snobby, and do gooders get their debt forgiven, usually partially by the law school and partially by the federal government. Only people going to for profit employers are really going to fully pay their debt back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The public or scholarship route works if you want to stay in the region where there are alot of grads at firms from those schools. It is not a good plan if you mean to move before you are an established practitioner. For example many firms in DC hire GW grads and they do well in this region - might not be the case right out of law school if you wanted to go to NE or somewhere on the west coast. And GW is ranked 25th - same holds even more true the further down the list you go. you can easily see this by looking at firm websites and searching for lawyers from a particular law school which is usually a filter.

The real issue is what happens to those who aren't at the top of their law school class. At top 10 schools, these folks still do well. At a top 14 school, only a few at the bottom of the class are locked out of legal employment. At lower tier schools as much as half to two-thirds of a law school class may never get a job as a lawyer. Those who are locked out with big loans never ever financially recover from their decision to go to law school.

If you can go to a state school for free or you have parents who can pay, then go ahead and roll the dice and go to a lower tier school. Maybe you will be at the top of your class and do great. If you have to take out loans, then it's a much bigger bet on your future.

How do I know? I had a good friend at my T14 in 2010 who was around the 50th percentile. He never could find a job as a lawyer, having been locked out of all entry level recruiting tracks. He was almost $300k in debt. He ended up becoming a high school teacher and is still trying to have his debt forgiven given the mess of loan forgiveness. His law degree and loans has been a noose around his neck for more than a decade. He was one of many during the last recession who never found legal employment. There's a small window to find a first legal job before hiring parties move on to the next graduating class in the pipeline and you're locked out forever.

OP, don't judge schools based on how their handful of best students do post-graduation. Look at how those grads who are below the 50th percentile do. Do they get jobs? What jobs? What do those jobs pay? You can't guarantee your son will be in the top 10-25% of his law school class. Everyone wants that and it's super competitive. You can't count on being in the tippy top of your class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to go against the grain on this thread and say prestige is for the birds. I know DCUM is obsessed with it but you can have a completely lucrative career having gone to a public law school. The vast majority of lawyers in this country are not employed at big law and did not attend a top 10 law school.

In fact, most of the attys that I know who started up their own firms and now make $$$ went to public, no name schools. DCUM is a weird place for advice because it slants in one direction only - private, prestigious, big law, money, did I say prestige? In truth, there a multitude of avenues for success.

I went to a public, not highly ranked school. I started up my own practice because I wanted more freedom to raise my kids. I don't make big law money but at $400-500K, I'm doing just fine in a dual income home.

There are lots of ways to make a living in law, OP, more than gov't and big law. Chances are when your DC gets to law school interests will change.

This is really good. Is that your net? What practice area? Are you a solo? Any employees or associates? Any office overhead? ~~Another Lawyer

The range is gross. At October, my YTD gross is about $420K. I expect to hit about $455/470 by end of this year (gross) with $425-ish net. I'm 100% virtual so my overhead is about $30K per year. It's very low so I keep roughly 90% of what I bring in. This does not include my taxes (obv) just office expenses (e.g., virtual lease, softwares, supplies, some 1099 work, cc fees). I have one contractor who works on an as needed basis but otherwise I'm a true solo. I don't have the bandwidth for a full office with employees due to kids/family, though have been approached by other firms re: mergers. I'm just not interested. I'm in employment based immigration and have been doing this over a decade. Year 1, I made $20K so it was a steady climb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He needs to research environmental law jobs and understand what that actually entails.

He has started that a bit.

Getting a government spot doing environmental law means you need to go to a top school and do well. Those jobs are filled with Harvard and Yale grads. You'll have an okay salary, but will be counting on the government forgiving your loans.

The other option is going into BigLaw and to defend companies in their quest to destroy the environment. You will be able to pay off your loans, but it isn't a job for a value-driven environmentalist.

If you can't get a prestigious federal job or get into Biglaw, if you are lucky, then you will make a subsistence wage filing petitions for local companies and individuals. More likely you won't get a legal job at all.

Practical free lawyerly advice.

Lawyer here, I concur this is practical, real world advice.