Theories as to why this year's acceptances were so tough...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

[Anonymous]

DP but I know for a fact that our US basically had a upside only semester in 2020, the sophomore year for current seniors. That spring’s grades only counted if they helped your GPA. In other words, your midterm grades were the floor. So a bunch of kids taking precalc and physics got a nice boost they would not have had otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's school caps the number of schools he can apply to at 10. He got into all 10. Students need to focus on reality and stop applying to 20 schools. Pick ones they can get into and then they'll have a lot of choices. By applying to schools that are clearly a reach, they made more work for themselves with a limited positive result.

No problem with applying to a few reach schools. Just make sure to have a well rounded group of schools---3-4 Reaches are fine, but you also need 3-4 True Safeties that you DC actually would want to attend (it's not an actual safety if you kid doesn't really want to attend), and then 3-4 targets. If you want to apply to more, go for it. Unfortunately, many applying to 20+ schools are including 18+ of those as Reaches and then disappointed in their results. If a school's acceptance rate is less than 20%, it's a REACH for everyone nowadays.

My own DS did 11 schools---could have done another 4-5 but they were all Reaches with less than 10% acceptance rates. he decided to narrow it down and select 2-3 Reaches and focus on those, as well as focus on living and enjoying senior year a little bit.

My kid didn't apply to any reaches because even if he did get in, he wouldn't get any merit aid. No money means no way he can go.

And that is a good plan---if you know you won't be eligible for financial aid (or merit aid), but cannot actually afford to pay $60-80K/year, then it's much better to help your kid find a college they like that is affordable for your family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's school caps the number of schools he can apply to at 10. He got into all 10. Students need to focus on reality and stop applying to 20 schools. Pick ones they can get into and then they'll have a lot of choices. By applying to schools that are clearly a reach, they made more work for themselves with a limited positive result.

No problem with applying to a few reach schools. Just make sure to have a well rounded group of schools---3-4 Reaches are fine, but you also need 3-4 True Safeties that you DC actually would want to attend (it's not an actual safety if you kid doesn't really want to attend), and then 3-4 targets. If you want to apply to more, go for it. Unfortunately, many applying to 20+ schools are including 18+ of those as Reaches and then disappointed in their results. If a school's acceptance rate is less than 20%, it's a REACH for everyone nowadays.

My own DS did 11 schools---could have done another 4-5 but they were all Reaches with less than 10% acceptance rates. he decided to narrow it down and select 2-3 Reaches and focus on those, as well as focus on living and enjoying senior year a little bit.

My kid didn't apply to any reaches because even if he did get in, he wouldn't get any merit aid. No money means no way he can go.

And that is a good plan---if you know you won't be eligible for financial aid (or merit aid), but cannot actually afford to pay $60-80K/year, then it's much better to help your kid find a college they like that is affordable for your family.

Yeah, money governed all of my kid's choices. She could have gotten into some very good schools, but didn't apply because they are private and cost $80K, and don't offer merit scholarships. (think NESCAC schools). She's going to a college where I don't know if she'll find a cohort, but it's the best we can do. I feel badly for her. DH and I went to Ivies (I went to Harvard). Even if DD got in, no way could we pay, nor would we. We're not wealthy (social service careers). Not everyone who goes to Ivies gets rich.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP but I know for a fact that our US basically had a upside only semester in 2020, the sophomore year for current seniors. That spring’s grades only counted if they helped your GPA. In other words, your midterm grades were the floor. So a bunch of kids taking precalc and physics got a nice boost they would not have had otherwise.

True but they all got the identical boost and they are competing against each other. These elite schools will only take a small number from any one high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

That’s only an issue on DCUM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor. it

Where are these numbers? What college has published test optional admits as a breakout?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

+1. Look these are the facts - and to those who say “it’s always been like this”. No. It has not. Never has it been “TO” nor has there been a pandemic nor has there been such a push to value criteria based on race/color/creed/sexual identity. So - no - staying it has always been like this is simply not true.

Standardized tests feel like they’ve *always* been part of the admission process, but in reality they are actually pretty recent (at least relative to how long universities have been around). It just feels like it has always been because we focus on the experience during our lifetimes. I have been and remain a critic of the SAT/ACT. While I might agree that some normalization factor can be useful, neither of these tests at all resembles what an actual college (or even HS) test looks like. People game the system by test prep, which, surprise surprise, teaches you only to be good at the test, without necessarily correlating to how well you have mastered math concepts and reading and critical reasoning skills. I know its tempting to believe that all our super achiever kids are the cream of the crop, but take those scores with a grain of salt. A better way would be a long-form test actually graded by professors, akin to how the AP exams are graded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

+1. Look these are the facts - and to those who say “it’s always been like this”. No. It has not. Never has it been “TO” nor has there been a pandemic nor has there been such a push to value criteria based on race/color/creed/sexual identity. So - no - staying it has always been like this is simply not true.

Standardized tests feel like they’ve *always* been part of the admission process, but in reality they are actually pretty recent (at least relative to how long universities have been around). It just feels like it has always been because we focus on the experience during our lifetimes. I have been and remain a critic of the SAT/ACT. While I might agree that some normalization factor can be useful, neither of these tests at all resembles what an actual college (or even HS) test looks like. People game the system by test prep, which, surprise surprise, teaches you only to be good at the test, without necessarily correlating to how well you have mastered math concepts and reading and critical reasoning skills. I know its tempting to believe that all our super achiever kids are the cream of the crop, but take those scores with a grain of salt. A better way would be a long-form test actually graded by professors, akin to how the AP exams are graded.

The issue with SATs and ACTs is that they do not correspond to the school curriculum. APs are better because it reflects a specific curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

That’s only an issue on DCUM

I actually feel like DCUM has gotten a lot kinder. I was on this subforum a few years back when my older kid was applying and someone posted that their kid got a 1360 on the SAT. Multiple users responded, specifically calling the child “retarded” and saying the kid must have gone to a horrible high school.

[Anonymous]

Number 1 and 2 from early poster. Also people deferring because of Covid. Now they are taking seats for this years class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

That’s only an issue on DCUM

I actually feel like DCUM has gotten a lot kinder. I was on this subforum a few years back when my older kid was applying and someone posted that their kid got a 1360 on the SAT. Multiple users responded, specifically calling the child “retarded” and saying the kid must have gone to a horrible high school.

Oh no it hasn’t gotten nicer. Hah my DS got a 1380 and is into UVA and the amount of obnoxious comments about how he’s going to fail and took a seat from an obviously much smarter kid with better scores...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question gets asked every year. You only think it’s an unusual year because your kid was part of it.

I actually think OP is accurate. Borders were closed to international visas, so 2 years of candidates from abroad were stuck at home. Then domestically many parents pulled their kids out of college out of fear of the virus or instructed juniors/seniors to delay and take a gap year because there was societal panic.

So yeah even if that led to a 20% surge in applications - tougher all around.

Lol, having the borders closed for a few years took out a large proportion of the top end of competition and opened up slots for US kids that in days past would be less likely to get in.

This is another reason why since the pandemic its become easier, not harder, for US kids.

Delusional

The US has a dubious distinction of having an uncompetitive high school educational system for the vast majority of students. In our country, students rank near the bottom compared to other industrialized countries in math and reading.

What the US is very good at is promoting a woke culture: what bathrooms should trans kids get to use, reasons why grades and standardized tests are racists, how can US people get more gibs from the government without thinking about how to actually earn it, etc.

In professions that contribute to national power? Not so much.

Why do you think most doctors are international? Why are many of the most advanced/valuable companies in the US populated by internationals?

These international students not only come to US colleges more prepared than US students they also come full pay without asking for handouts, whining about how expensive it is, how many snow days are gifted, no homework policies students are already too stressed out, unlimited second chances for disruptive students that conduct criminal tier behavior otherwise again its racists, etc.

Not saying that I like it, but its the hard truth and the most successful college grads from the elite colleges are often international students.


https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-12-03/us-students-show-no-improvement-in-math-reading-science-on-international-exam

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-students-continue-to-lag-behind-peers-in-east-asia-and-europe-in-reading-math-and-science-exams-show/2019/12/02/e9e3b37c-153d-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/

The conspiracies run strong in you.

You think any student at Yale is complaining about the level of homework?

About a third physicians in the US are foreign educated, so it's not "most." Admission to US med schools remains very competitive.

Lol when was the last time you saw a doctor that was a white blonde hair/blue eyes anglo-saxon heritage male which was essentially the most common male phenotype for the initial 100+ years of the US? Take a look at the other 70% and most will be naturalized or first gen immigrants

I’ve had a few white doctors.

[Anonymous]

More kids applying to a school they are not qualified for…

A Tufts AO said 74% of those who applied were even qualified.