Theories as to why this year's acceptances were so tough...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s a mystery

1. The top colleges have barely added any new seats to incoming classes in 40 years. Yet we have 3mm more HS graduates. That’s 300,000 more students in the top 10% if their class vying for that tiny number of seats.
2. Increased foreign applicants as the US tries to lure talent
3. COVID grade inflation made more kids think they were more accomplished than they really were
4. General dilution of the SAT. Since college board reverted to the 1600 scale from the 2400 scale, they did NOT return to the same scale as pre-2400. Todays scores equate to 60-100 points lower on the old 1600 scale.
5. Test optional gives more people a punchers chance. Note I am actually in favor of TO. I am a devout non-believer in the SAT/ACT and what they purport to measure.
6. Common App majes it ever easier to spam 20 schools. I applied to 4 schools in HS in the mid-90s. Each application had to be typed on a typewriter or hand filled in. Tedious.
7. The ever-increasing influence of stupid rankings, combined with anxiety over being one of the have nots if you don’t get into a top 20.

+1. Look these are the facts - and to those who say “it’s always been like this”. No. It has not. Never has it been “TO” nor has there been a pandemic nor has there been such a push to value criteria based on race/color/creed/sexual identity. So - no - staying it has always been like this is simply not true.

Standardized tests feel like they’ve *always* been part of the admission process, but in reality they are actually pretty recent (at least relative to how long universities have been around). It just feels like it has always been because we focus on the experience during our lifetimes. I have been and remain a critic of the SAT/ACT. While I might agree that some normalization factor can be useful, neither of these tests at all resembles what an actual college (or even HS) test looks like. People game the system by test prep, which, surprise surprise, teaches you only to be good at the test, without necessarily correlating to how well you have mastered math concepts and reading and critical reasoning skills. I know its tempting to believe that all our super achiever kids are the cream of the crop, but take those scores with a grain of salt. A better way would be a long-form test actually graded by professors, akin to how the AP exams are graded.

False. SAT has been around since 1922. It was a huge part of my 1974 application to all colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's school caps the number of schools he can apply to at 10. He got into all 10. Students need to focus on reality and stop applying to 20 schools. Pick ones they can get into and then they'll have a lot of choices. By applying to schools that are clearly a reach, they made more work for themselves with a limited positive result.

Not everyone applying to 20 is applying to top 20 schools. The uncertainty in the process is creating panic at every level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

Take a look at the stats on a sampling of college websites for specific data on applicant pool. There is for certain TO stats available. I don’t know why you keep pretending that this is not data colleges are closely watching and considering. It is not an unknown. Ridiculous to state otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Yes we do. Most schools reported what percentage of students applied T0 and what percentages got in.
Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

[Anonymous]

I used to be one of those people that was like, “it doesn’t matter, why can’t kids just go to UMW or CNU and call it a day.” Then one of my kids attended one on that level and my kid reported that every class (in STEM) was stupidly easy and that most of the kids didn’t give a sh*t. My kid was idle. They transferred soon after.

I am not confident that course rigor is why people hand wring over UVa and the like, but if it is I can see why.

[Anonymous]

Were they really?

I was surprised at some mid-low achievers getting into schools that would normally be way beyond their reach if they had to submit scores.

Personally, I am glad to see a few schools bringing back score requirements. Grade inflation is alive and well. I mean, when you have 35 Valedictorians...what exactly is that telling us?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Were they really?

I was surprised at some mid-low achievers getting into schools that would normally be way beyond their reach if they had to submit scores.

Personally, I am glad to see a few schools bringing back score requirements. Grade inflation is alive and well. I mean, when you have 35 Valedictorians...what exactly is that telling us?

When they start seeing the work and the level of students admitted without scores, they can judge if they think that is a good option. From talking to someone in admissions at a top school, it's not looking too good for remaining 'test optional'. The rigor of high schools varies so much, as well as the level of education. Some kids cannot write a proper essay when they arrive.

[Anonymous]

Some kids cannot write a proper essay when they arrive.

Wouldn't the AOs be able to discern this from an application?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Were they really?

I was surprised at some mid-low achievers getting into schools that would normally be way beyond their reach if they had to submit scores.

Personally, I am glad to see a few schools bringing back score requirements. Grade inflation is alive and well. I mean, when you have 35 Valedictorians...what exactly is that telling us?

When they start seeing the work and the level of students admitted without scores, they can judge if they think that is a good option. From talking to someone in admissions at a top school, it's not looking too good for remaining 'test optional'. The rigor of high schools varies so much, as well as the level of education. Some kids cannot write a proper essay when they arrive.

When is this? You mean based on experiences from just this past year? Because these schools have excellent freshmen retention rates and graduation rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Yes we do. Most schools reported what percentage of students applied T0 and what percentages


got in.
Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

Faldr. Every school I know published this info.

[Anonymous]

The pandemic years was easier for both high stat kids and lower stat/TO kids

Its obviously easier for the lower stat/TO kids because most would never realistically get into competitive school before, some studies indicate that 90%+ of TO kids would not have been admitted in pre-pandemic conditions at elite institutions

Its also easier for high stat kids that submitted SATs because it highlights an ability and motivation to perform better relative to peers in a challenging environment, something that is considered a real-world trait necessary for success

The percentage admits went down overall but if you were to compare on an apples-to-apples basis it would look something like this illustratively:

High stat kid + SAT: pre-pandemic 10% / pandemic 20%
Low stat kid + TO: pre-pandemic 0% / pandemic 3%
Total: pre-pandemic 9% / pandemic 7%

Yes, it looks harder because the percentages went down, but colleges were flooded with applicants that historically would have no business even considering some of the more competitive schools letting alone paying the application fee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

Take a look at the stats on a sampling of college websites for specific data on applicant pool. There is for certain TO stats available. I don’t know why you keep pretending that this is not data colleges are closely watching and considering. It is not an unknown. Ridiculous to state otherwise.

+1

Some of these DCUM posters act as if Test Optional = dumb/remedial.
Test Optional means that applicant made the choice to have his/her application evaluated without a SAT score. That's it. If a selective college admitted the person TO, that probably means they had other sterling credentials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wasn't any tougher than any of the other years - Mom of 4.

Yes, it was. The statistics quite irrefutably show it was. My senior landed well but I look around and many did not.

- Mom of 6 (not really but see how that works?)

Again - with the “same as every other year” people. Schools made TO a reality - this alone changed the landscape of application pool. That is not an opinion it is a fact. The push to elevate non academic criteria is also a fact. And finally - COVID - no in person schools and resulting grade inflation also is a fact.

Test optional is a change but the effect is unknown. The expansion of the applicant pool probably makes a difference but the pool has been expanding most years. The question is whether the magnitude of the expansion matters. Probably but hard to tell two weeks after decisions were released. Great qualified kids have always failed to get into schools. Is it really more this year?

Yes we do. Most schools reported what percentage of students applied T0 and what percentages


got in.
Elevation of non academic criteria happened just this past year? Really? You’re going to argue that?

Where is the data supporting your fact that grade inflation resulted from the pandemic?

DP. Applications at the top 56 colleges rose by 25% this year. That’s definitely significant. In the past, it would be unlikely that there were 25% more kids that had the test scores to be competitive. Test optional removed that as a constraint. From the numbers I’ve seen so far, the kids who submitted tests were admitted at an only a slightly higher rate than kids that did not. It was definitely a factor.

+1. That TO resulted in a sea of applications is well documented. I don’t know where PP can possible get evidence that the impact is “unknown”. Every elite school received and documented a surge in applications.

You don’t know how many applicants were actually test optional. You don’t know how many test optional applications were accepted. So I think the actual impact is and will remain unknown. It’s all speculation right now.

Faldr. Every school I know published this info.

I am genuinely curious where this information is published. for those schools that have published their CDS for 2021-22, all they tell you is how many SAT/ACT scores were submitted for enrolled students. You can't derive how many test optional students out of that other than a minimum numbers (students who submitted both SAT and ACT count twice). I don't believe the CDS published these stats for applicants or a breakdown on admission rates.

Some schools may, but all schools?