At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We make $350k and I still "feel" middle class, because we live a VERY middle class lifestyle in an expensive area... But, minus the stress and with a ton more savings in the bank, and more donations/giving.

But I very much KNOW that I'm wealthy by any reasonable standard. Not like the uber rich or even DCUM-rich, but practically speaking, there is nothing middle about my income.

+1. We make $350k and still live a middle class life in part because we have $150k in student loans. Once those are gone I think we can start living a little more. I think I’ll feel rich when I fly nicer than economy

You are very wealthy.

[Anonymous]

The title of the post did specify “feel”. You can consider yourself to be rich, but still “feel” middle class for whatever reason and that’s obviously the discussion OP wanted to have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The title of the post did specify “feel”. You can consider yourself to be rich, but still “feel” middle class for whatever reason and that’s obviously the discussion OP wanted to have.

I don't see why that's obvious -- I understood the question of what you "feel" to be what you "consider yourself"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

$150,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Humans are greedy. It’s never enough.

That’s for sure!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

You must be referring to feeling ‘upper’ middle class. There’s no way at that hhi you would only feel middle class unless you have 10 kids or six figure debt or something.

We’re both doctors who went to medical school relatively late and prior to medical school worked in poorly paid positions, so basically saved nothing. We started making a combined income around $300K a few years ago. We have focused a lot on paying down debt and only have about $35K left. We just bought a $1.3M house in a HCOL area (outside NYC) last year and took out a 401K loan of $45K to afford it and we’ve been paying that loan back this year, which has been tough. We also have 2 kids in preschool and a nanny, because our hours are long and unpredictable and we don’t have any family help. We have one fully paid off car (2018 Subaru) and are putting off buying another car for as long as possible. We haven’t taken a vacation since 2019. I realize that paying off our debt (minus the mortgage) is temporary. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that I came from a very middle class background (HHI under 70K, both parents routinely worked more than one job) or that I live in a very HCOL area where everyone around me seems to make way more.

You have a spending issue. You choose to go to high priced schools and then bought an insanely expensive house. You could have done cheaper housing, you could have done day care and a baby sitter. Your choices don't make you middle class.

Lol. I don’t know of any cheap medical schools. I’m also pretty sure you wouldn’t want a doctor who went to one. Similarly, I’m sure if you or a family member ended up in the ICU you wouldn’t want your doctor to be unavailable because their low-paid babysitter wasn’t available. But sure, say it’s spending issues.

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

+1 for over 400K and we're in a lower COL area with no student debt and only 2 children. Why? Because after that income, I could afford to go to the derm monthly or get a pair of Loeffler Randall boots without worrying about the impact of the purchase on the household. These are my luxuries. For others, it might be crab legs once a month, so lower HHI and for others a SFH vacation house on Sanibel Island, so much higher. My neighbor makes around 400K as an ER doctor, but he's stretched - he supports 8 kids, a SAHW, and an ex-wife. It's a feeling, not a hard number.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We make $350k and I still "feel" middle class, because we live a VERY middle class lifestyle in an expensive area... But, minus the stress and with a ton more savings in the bank, and more donations/giving.

But I very much KNOW that I'm wealthy by any reasonable standard. Not like the uber rich or even DCUM-rich, but practically speaking, there is nothing middle about my income.

I don’t get this because you say you feel middle class because of your lifestyle but then explain that the key difference is a lot more savings and more charitable giving.

But… don’t your savings and charitable giving change how you feel? I’m actually middle class and my lack of savings and inability to even donate much to the school PTA or a cause I really believe in makes me “feel” middle class. I could spend more money on material goods but it would only further diminish savings and giving, plus put me in more debt which would be an enormous source of stress. There is no way for me to feel anything other than middle class because it’s what I am. It’s my station in life and I have all the hallmarks if a middle class life in 2021 America: education debt, a home I can afford but barely, crummy local public schools. I can buy a flatscreen for $200 tho!

So many of you are discounting how different the feeling is between making even 200k (much less 350k!) and trying to raise kids on 80-120k, especially in this area (yes, even if you live far out, commutes cost money too). It’s not wearing 5 year old clothes from LL Bean or driving a Toyota that makes you feel middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you say “middle class” do you mean old days middle class, or nowadays middle class? There’s a difference. Nowadays middle class are actually pretty poor…struggling to pay bills and clipping coupons and forgoing college and health care because both are astronomical. In the old days middle class had the Subaru and took a summer vacation and so forth. Anyway, I agree with around $400k.

Middle class is not $400K. You are extremely wealthy, probably living in a million dollar house. Middle class live in small, $300-400K homes max or rent. They are living on a tight budget. They dont' have savings, retirement, etc.

400k AFTER taxes is not wealthy.

Why is that people on here never want to acknowledge people are talking about GROSS income and NOT NET income?!?!

it's so annoying and fustrating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

You must be referring to feeling ‘upper’ middle class. There’s no way at that hhi you would only feel middle class unless you have 10 kids or six figure debt or something.

We’re both doctors who went to medical school relatively late and prior to medical school worked in poorly paid positions, so basically saved nothing. We started making a combined income around $300K a few years ago. We have focused a lot on paying down debt and only have about $35K left. We just bought a $1.3M house in a HCOL area (outside NYC) last year and took out a 401K loan of $45K to afford it and we’ve been paying that loan back this year, which has been tough. We also have 2 kids in preschool and a nanny, because our hours are long and unpredictable and we don’t have any family help. We have one fully paid off car (2018 Subaru) and are putting off buying another car for as long as possible. We haven’t taken a vacation since 2019. I realize that paying off our debt (minus the mortgage) is temporary. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that I came from a very middle class background (HHI under 70K, both parents routinely worked more than one job) or that I live in a very HCOL area where everyone around me seems to make way more.

You have a spending issue. You choose to go to high priced schools and then bought an insanely expensive house. You could have done cheaper housing, you could have done day care and a baby sitter. Your choices don't make you middle class.

Lol. I don’t know of any cheap medical schools. I’m also pretty sure you wouldn’t want a doctor who went to one. Similarly, I’m sure if you or a family member ended up in the ICU you wouldn’t want your doctor to be unavailable because their low-paid babysitter wasn’t available. But sure, say it’s spending issues.

+1. The UVA med school is $78k/year for residents. There are virtually no merit scholarships for the vast majority of the med students and definitely none that can make a dent in that tuition amount - mom with DC1 in med school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.

At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?

400k

My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.

What makes you feel middle class at your current income? I’m guessing you have (or could have) a nice house in a good school district and/or private school, you have a large grocery / eating out budget, you buy all the things your family needs, you go on regular vacations, you have two cars at least one of them less than 5 years old, you save a lot for retirement (probably max your 401k/tsp/IRA/etc…)

What’s missing from your life?

Genuinely curious because I’m at that level and have the above which feels pretty comfortable.

For me it’s the vacations. Middle of the road hotels feel middle class now.

OMG…..I just can’t with you.

[Anonymous]

There is A huge difference between solid middle-class and upper class. That is why there is an upper middle class.
We make $250k. Late model cars (generally buy new, and keep for 5 years). Domestic vacations once or twice a year. Saving for retirement and kids college. No extra vehicles or vacation homes. I don’t worry if there’s enough money to cover dental bills. Have good health insurance. That’s is upper middle class.
Upper class - international vacations or multiple high end domestic ones. Extra vehicles. Private schools. Vacation homes. One of those items alone doesn’t make one upper class - but multiple do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We make $350k and I still "feel" middle class, because we live a VERY middle class lifestyle in an expensive area... But, minus the stress and with a ton more savings in the bank, and more donations/giving.

But I very much KNOW that I'm wealthy by any reasonable standard. Not like the uber rich or even DCUM-rich, but practically speaking, there is nothing middle about my income.

I don’t get this because you say you feel middle class because of your lifestyle but then explain that the key difference is a lot more savings and more charitable giving.

But… don’t your savings and charitable giving change how you feel? I’m actually middle class and my lack of savings and inability to even donate much to the school PTA or a cause I really believe in makes me “feel” middle class. I could spend more money on material goods but it would only further diminish savings and giving, plus put me in more debt which would be an enormous source of stress. There is no way for me to feel anything other than middle class because it’s what I am. It’s my station in life and I have all the hallmarks if a middle class life in 2021 America: education debt, a home I can afford but barely, crummy local public schools. I can buy a flatscreen for $200 tho!

So many of you are discounting how different the feeling is between making even 200k (much less 350k!) and trying to raise kids on 80-120k, especially in this area (yes, even if you live far out, commutes cost money too). It’s not wearing 5 year old clothes from LL Bean or driving a Toyota that makes you feel middle class.

Yes, I acknowledged minus the stress & with savings as a caveat, and put feel in quotes for a reason. I get what you are saying and agree.

I guess I’m saying that I basically have the same (or lesser in some ways) lifestyle as my parents (very middle class) on a surface level, but it is really different under the hood. I tell my feelings all the time that they are wrong on this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two observations:

1) Many people here seem to be basing their beliefs on this on their past experience as a "middle class" person. I know many people like this in my life. They grew up UMC but don't seem to realize it, either because their parents basically lied to them their whole lives or because of some artificial or temporary circumstances that made them feel like their family was struggling even though it wasn't. For instance, I know a lot of doctors' kids like this. They may remember some years when they were young when their doctor parent was a resident and things were tight. But by the time they were in high school, their family was firmly UMC and their parents could pay for things like private school for multiple kids, college without loans, grad degrees, assist with down payments on houses, pay for large weddings, etc. People like this live with a myth about their upbringing and it makes them overlook the many, many unusual advantages they have. So as adults, they don't "feel" well off until they have a nicer lifestyle than their parents. They don't understand their parents were, and are, very well off.

2) As an actual middle class person (125k HHI) who also grew up actually middle class (parent HHI was between 50k and 80k as I grew up) I would argue that the experience of being middle class has not actually changed that much. The amount of money it takes to pay for the same stuff has changed, but the lifestyle is similar. You can afford to own a home, but it will be small, or far out, or not updated, or potentially all three. You can have kids but the burden of additional kids is huge, largely because of the skyrocketing costs of college. Your kids go to public schools, and the schools are ok but problematic in pretty much all middle class neighborhoods. You might be able to move into a better school, but you will need to make serious sacrifices -- renting an apartment in an ancient building, for instance. You are unlikely to be able to buy in at this point, even if you are willing to buy the crappiest house or a tiny condo. You can take vacations but it's mostly via car (it's hard to afford airfare except maybe once every few years). You rarely stay in hotels and when you do they are budget. You don't eat out a lot. Most of your disposable income goes to stuff that richer people view as necessities (activities for kids, for instance). And so on. This is how I grew up, it's how I live now. The biggest difference is that we have school debt (neither of my parents had to take out loans to attend their public colleges) and we are terrified of how much college will cost for our one child. We stopped at one in large part for this reason, and even then, this is the largest source of financial stress, especially because our kid has turned out to be a smart, academic kid who will definitely want/need college to pursue an appropriate career, but is not some kind of superstar (and we can't afford to make them look like one the way rich people can). The cost of higher education is one of the central concerns on which I will vote moving forward because as things currently stand, our kid will either need to take out enormous loans or forgo college at even a state university. Maybe community college would be an option, but even there the ROI seems bad.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. On college our daughter goes to Maryland and lives at home. She has a part time job and we pay the rest — less than 10k a year. Room and board and the college experience is where they get ya. Bare tuition at in state school is usually doable for most people especially if child contributes a little which by the way is good for them. Even 10 hours a week makes they so much more efficient with their time.