Should NATO/ US planes bomb the Russian military massing on the Ukraine border?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the Russian troops advance I am good with a NATO alliance providing air support.

We need to give it up on Nordstream 2. All the parties to the actual agreement want that to happen. It's not ideal, but as demonstrated by Russian troops at the border of Ukraine we have much bigger fish to fry. If we let Putin take Ukraine we have massive problems in the area. Europe cares, but Europe can't do it on its own.

Why do WE have a massive problem in the area? Exactly what is our interest in a tiny country with a failing economy that's just as authoritarian and corrupt as Russia?

Look. There is something the world doesn't understand, and it's that there is really no such thing as independent Ukraine. There is no real history of sovereignty in the Ukraine outside of the last 20-30 years, and there is also the truth that independence is the lot of the strong and the rich. There is no such thing as independence for small, weak, poor countries. They have to have a patron and depend on someone. The only difference is in how much they enjoy the relationship. If they do, it's called strategic collaboration, if they don't, it's oppression. So keep that in mind as you discuss "independent" Ukraine.

1. Ukraine is not a tiny country. It is the 2nd largest by area in Europe. It has over 50 million people.
2. The Ruthenians/Kievan Rus have a long and well documented history dating back to the 9th century. It has always been separate from the Muscovites (ie: Russians).

Please tell us when there was a formally recognized independent country of Ukraine with all the normal accoutrements of a normal country before 1993. Bonus points for the exact location of its borders.

The same can be said for most of the Baltic nations. Finland is a new concept. Poland was blotted out of existence for centuries. Most of Eastern Europe dates from 1919.

[Anonymous]

To the PPP....where is Prussia? It was a major country in the 18th century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.


Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.


But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.


But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.


- given Stalin and the USSR’s persecution and oppression of non-Russians in Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia right up to 1989, is anyone surprised?

I am not aware of anything stopping Russians living in the Baltics from moving and living someplace else, such as, maybe, Russia?

Oh please. The Baltic states were smart-- they required the ethnic Russians to choose a citizenship---no dual citizenship which could be used as a pretext for Russia invading to protect "their" citizens. What the Russians did to the people of the Baltics will not be forgotten. They swept into Lithuania and took apart the middle class and sent most to Siberia---deliberately going after the educated who could have organized political dissent.

[Anonymous]

A huge portion of the "pro-Russia" people in Crimea and western Ukraine weren't even originally from there. They arrived as part of massive repopulation efforts prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union. 100 years ago you would have found a lot of Tatars living in Crimea - they were displaced and replaced with ethnic Russians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m giddy at the prospect of watching Biden F this up. Because we all know he will.


“Never underestimate Joe’s ability to F things up”
- B. Obama

Here we go with the defeatist cheering for the demise of the USA. I bet you were dancing in the street on 911.

Um, we spent 4 years watching the democrats throw a collective temper-tantrum over a fairly-elected president they did not like, and they were “defeatists cheering for the demise of the USA” the whole time.

Your retort is rather hypocritical.

DP, btw.

+1

Get used to it, kitten. Progscum set the bar for presidential criticism from 2016-2020. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride for you Bidenista’s and we’re gonna clobber him for every thing he screws up, big and small.

So buckle up your chinstrap, sweetie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.

Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.

But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.

But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.

- given Stalin and the USSR’s persecution and oppression of non-Russians in Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia right up to 1989, is anyone surprised?

I am not aware of anything stopping Russians living in the Baltics from moving and living someplace else, such as, maybe, Russia?

It's just so funny that you feel comfortable saying things about Russians that would be considered racist and xenophobic if mentioning pretty much any other ethnic or racial group. You're making a case that oppression is justified if it targets the right group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Oh please. The Baltic states were smart-- they required the ethnic Russians to choose a citizenship---no dual citizenship which could be used as a pretext for Russia invading to protect "their" citizens. What the Russians did to the people of the Baltics will not be forgotten. They swept into Lithuania and took apart the middle class and sent most to Siberia---deliberately going after the educated who could have organized political dissent.

That's a lie. How can you choose something that was never made available to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Oh please. The Baltic states were smart-- they required the ethnic Russians to choose a citizenship---no dual citizenship which could be used as a pretext for Russia invading to protect "their" citizens. What the Russians did to the people of the Baltics will not be forgotten. They swept into Lithuania and took apart the middle class and sent most to Siberia---deliberately going after the educated who could have organized political dissent.

You seem opposed to what the "Russians" did to Lithuania and support the notion of them undoing it. Can I assume that you also support the notion of Lithuania returning its capital Vilnius to Poland and Klaipeda to Germany? Both were gifted to Lithuania by the Soviet rule. I'll wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.

Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.

But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.

But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.

Taking down a statue is not oppression

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.

Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.

But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.

But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.

Taking down a statue is not oppression

Making one-third of your population stateless and barring them from voting and property ownership is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A huge portion of the "pro-Russia" people in Crimea and western Ukraine weren't even originally from there. They arrived as part of massive repopulation efforts prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union. 100 years ago you would have found a lot of Tatars living in Crimea - they were displaced and replaced with ethnic Russians.

Well it's not like it was virgin lands you know. Go back in history a hundred years and you'll find one people living them, go back another hundred, and the picture will be quite different. You can't build a policy based on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.

Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.

But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.

But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.

Taking down a statue is not oppression

Yes celebrating your Nazi veterans is much better.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-02-23-1992054004-story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A huge portion of the "pro-Russia" people in Crimea and western Ukraine weren't even originally from there. They arrived as part of massive repopulation efforts prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union. 100 years ago you would have found a lot of Tatars living in Crimea - they were displaced and replaced with ethnic Russians.

Well it's not like it was virgin lands you know. Go back in history a hundred years and you'll find one people living them, go back another hundred, and the picture will be quite different. You can't build a policy based on that.

Hmm... would you be talking about the Pale of Settlement? Yes, Russia has traditionally been extremely anti-Semitic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We should not be intervening militarily.

Russia’s official (and likely) reason for the military build-up is Russian fear of Ukraine joining NATO.

I am as pro-west and pro-USA as they come. But it behooves us to view this potential conflict from every angle.

The Russian “angle” sees Ukrainian NATO membership as analogous to the Cuban missile crisis in reverse; the Russians fear NATO missiles in Ukraine.

Putin will also hold up “protecting the human rights the Russian minority” in Eastern Ukraine as a pretext, even though we know he cares not at all for anyone’s human rights.

But the problem is that NATO, besides Poland and the Baltics, doesn't really want Ukraine to join. Considering the state of relations with Turkey, and Putin's growing friendship with Erdogan, there is chance that NATO expands in the short term. If Russia doesn't make it an issue it wouldn't be an issue. The Ukraine's geography is not a good defesive line and missiles in Ukraine provide no strategic advantage over missiles in Poland, Romania, or the Baltics. It's all a saber rattling move on Russia's part. Unfortunately the more Russia pushes the more likely Ukrainian membership in NATO becomes. If there is ever a war then the entire East European Plain would be one giant killing field, just like it has been during every previous war in that region.

From NATO's perspective, the Russian aggression over Ukraine, along with its Belarusian puppet, is a direct threat to Poland and the Baltics. Russia has already meddled with the Baltics through cyber attacks and riling up the ethnic Russian minority population. If the Ukrainian buffer gets breached then events will spiral out of control.

But the ethnic Russian minority in the Baltics IS prosecuted and denied their human rights. It's not a made-up problem.

Taking down a statue is not oppression

Making one-third of your population stateless and barring them from voting and property ownership is.

Russia started a cyber-war and developed the strategy that was used in Georgia and is now being used in Ukraine because Estonia moved a statute. Russia is a malign actor that uses fake irridentist claims to destabilize the entire region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A huge portion of the "pro-Russia" people in Crimea and western Ukraine weren't even originally from there. They arrived as part of massive repopulation efforts prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union. 100 years ago you would have found a lot of Tatars living in Crimea - they were displaced and replaced with ethnic Russians.

Well it's not like it was virgin lands you know. Go back in history a hundred years and you'll find one people living them, go back another hundred, and the picture will be quite different. You can't build a policy based on that.

Hmm... would you be talking about the Pale of Settlement? Yes, Russia has traditionally been extremely anti-Semitic.

It's not Russia that wiped out its Jewish population with the utmost enthusiasm before the Nazis came and by god, after.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1992-02-23-1992054004-story.html