Should NATO/ US planes bomb the Russian military massing on the Ukraine border?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the Russian troops advance I am good with a NATO alliance providing air support.

We need to give it up on Nordstream 2. All the parties to the actual agreement want that to happen. It's not ideal, but as demonstrated by Russian troops at the border of Ukraine we have much bigger fish to fry. If we let Putin take Ukraine we have massive problems in the area. Europe cares, but Europe can't do it on its own.

Why do WE have a massive problem in the area? Exactly what is our interest in a tiny country with a failing economy that's just as authoritarian and corrupt as Russia?

Look. There is something the world doesn't understand, and it's that there is really no such thing as independent Ukraine. There is no real history of sovereignty in the Ukraine outside of the last 20-30 years, and there is also the truth that independence is the lot of the strong and the rich. There is no such thing as independence for small, weak, poor countries. They have to have a patron and depend on someone. The only difference is in how much they enjoy the relationship. If they do, it's called strategic collaboration, if they don't, it's oppression. So keep that in mind as you discuss "independent" Ukraine.

Yikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No we should not get militarily involved. I can't believe anyone is even suggesting it.

One of the PP's is right though. If Russia takes Ukraine then China will take Taiwan.

None of this crap happened under Trump. This is insane.

How stupid are our leaders? The world was safer under Trump. There was no talk of invasions because they were afraid of his intelligence and resolve. They have zero respect for Usurper Poopy Pants.

Did you just call Trump “intelligent?” 😂😂😂😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jesus Christ.

Will stupid boomers/silent gen just die off already? Putin is still stuck in the cold war mindset. Biden doesn't even know what's going on. Xi wants to revert to the days of Mao, but with expansionist tendencies.

Boomers are going to leave their final terrible mark on the world by starting WW3.

This. Can we stop reliving the 1910s? We already had a pandemic. I don't want a world war

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No we should not get militarily involved. I can't believe anyone is even suggesting it.

One of the PP's is right though. If Russia takes Ukraine then China will take Taiwan.

None of this crap happened under Trump. This is insane.

How stupid are our leaders? The world was safer under Trump. There was no talk of invasions because they were afraid of his intelligence and resolve. They have zero respect for Usurper Poopy Pants.

Did you just call Trump “intelligent?” 😂😂😂😂

I thought Trump was the one wearing a diaper, anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No we should not get militarily involved. I can't believe anyone is even suggesting it.

One of the PP's is right though. If Russia takes Ukraine then China will take Taiwan.

None of this crap happened under Trump. This is insane.

How stupid are our leaders? The world was safer under Trump. There was no talk of invasions because they were afraid of his intelligence and resolve. They have zero respect for Usurper Poopy Pants.

Trump is a nutcase and almost got us nuked by North Korea. So save it. I'm not a Biden fan or even a Democrat but Trump was an actual crazy person.

[Anonymous]

The world was NOT super safe under Trump. What we had and have is a coalition of autocrats, working together. IF the US joins those ranks, then the freedom of humanity is at stake globally.

God, the GOP are just stupid. I am old enough to remember when Reagan STOOD UP to the Russians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Iceland, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Italy, Hungary, Norway, and Bosnia? All of Europe was pretty much part of someone else's empire prior to WW1. Ukraine is no different or less legitimate than those countries.

I find Ukraine's entire region annoying but it is an important buffer. I definitely wouldn't bring them into NATO because it's impossible to defend geographically but they grow a lot ofnfood and the Black Sea has a lot of natural gas so it has important natural resources. They have a right to exist and the naive Neville Chamberlain-esque attitude you are showing is bad strategic judgement.

You say this like their food and their natural gas is somehow yours to manage and mind.

It's theira to mind not Russia's. Thoae two things are the reason why Russia wants to take them over.


But since we're talking about a grand re-organization of Russia's post WWI borders, should Konigsburg go back to Germany? Should Moldova go back to Romania? Murmansk to Finland? Chechnya? Sakhalin and the Kuriles to Japan?

Carry on - why stop there? (I should note that no sane country would want Chechnya, you know).

Poland should give Silesia, Pomerania and 80% of East Prussia back to Germany and thank Mr. Stalin for his generous gift. It should also apologize to the ethnic German population of these areas who were expelled over three months. I mean say what you want about USSR and Konigsberg, but it did give the Germans six years to "repatriate".

Lithuania should return its capital Vilnius to Poland, and Klaipeda to Germany, again with thanks to Mr. Stalin.

Romania, the ungrateful child that supported the Nazis, still received the gift of Transylvania (formerly Hungary). Justice now!

Bulgaria helped itself to South Dobruja, formerly Romania. Tsk, tsk.

And now to Ukraine, this proud, freedom-lovin' country. To restore justice post-WW2, it should return its western part (Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk) to Poland, who owned them 1939. Also, return Chernovitsy to Romania, who owned these lands till 1940. Also, return Zakarpatye to Hungary and Slovakia, who owned them till 1945. I mean honestly, say what you want about USSR's iron boot, but Ukraine made out like a bandit land-wise. Is it going to return these lands to their rightful owners or keep enjoyin' USSR's gifts?

Well Ukraine is the one that's fine with the status quo. It's Russia that wants Ukraine, even though it wasn't pre-Soviet. So, that's a question better asked to Putin. Is Russia going to give those lands, and others, back?

I'm sure it's fine with the status quo lol, I'm just saying that it's hardly a poster child for things like territorial integrity since it was happy to help itself to the lands expropriated from others.

I suspect if you were to ask him that question, he'd smile and say - oh how you giveth and then taketh away!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Iceland, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Italy, Hungary, Norway, and Bosnia? All of Europe was pretty much part of someone else's empire prior to WW1. Ukraine is no different or less legitimate than those countries.

I find Ukraine's entire region annoying but it is an important buffer. I definitely wouldn't bring them into NATO because it's impossible to defend geographically but they grow a lot ofnfood and the Black Sea has a lot of natural gas so it has important natural resources. They have a right to exist and the naive Neville Chamberlain-esque attitude you are showing is bad strategic judgement.

You say this like their food and their natural gas is somehow yours to manage and mind.

It's theira to mind not Russia's. Thoae two things are the reason why Russia wants to take them over.


But since we're talking about a grand re-organization of Russia's post WWI borders, should Konigsburg go back to Germany? Should Moldova go back to Romania? Murmansk to Finland? Chechnya? Sakhalin and the Kuriles to Japan?

Carry on - why stop there? (I should note that no sane country would want Chechnya, you know).

Poland should give Silesia, Pomerania and 80% of East Prussia back to Germany and thank Mr. Stalin for his generous gift. It should also apologize to the ethnic German population of these areas who were expelled over three months. I mean say what you want about USSR and Konigsberg, but it did give the Germans six years to "repatriate".

Lithuania should return its capital Vilnius to Poland, and Klaipeda to Germany, again with thanks to Mr. Stalin.

Romania, the ungrateful child that supported the Nazis, still received the gift of Transylvania (formerly Hungary). Justice now!

Bulgaria helped itself to South Dobruja, formerly Romania. Tsk, tsk.

And now to Ukraine, this proud, freedom-lovin' country. To restore justice post-WW2, it should return its western part (Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk) to Poland, who owned them 1939. Also, return Chernovitsy to Romania, who owned these lands till 1940. Also, return Zakarpatye to Hungary and Slovakia, who owned them till 1945. I mean honestly, say what you want about USSR's iron boot, but Ukraine made out like a bandit land-wise. Is it going to return these lands to their rightful owners or keep enjoyin' USSR's gifts?

Well Ukraine is the one that's fine with the status quo. It's Russia that wants Ukraine, even though it wasn't pre-Soviet. So, that's a question better asked to Putin. Is Russia going to give those lands, and others, back?

I'm sure it's fine with the status quo lol, I'm just saying that it's hardly a poster child for things like territorial integrity since it was happy to help itself to the lands expropriated from others.

I suspect if you were to ask him that question, he'd smile and say - oh how you giveth and then taketh away!

I mean the fact remains that what is now Ukraine has been part of the EU sphere, Poland/Lithuania and Austria/Hungary, from the 1300's until WW1. Before that if was a Kingdom. After that it was independent. Then it was Nazi. Then it was a Soviet Republic. Then it was an independent democracy. Russia has no claim and the Soviet Union wasn't just Russia. If any country has a claim it's Poland/Lithuania or Romania, all of which are NATO allies. Russia just wants to steal the natural gas. They want to embark on a good old fashioned oil war that will destabilize the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course not!
However I am very nervous. I have travel plans to one of the neighboring countries and I am afraid someone will freak out, the other side will react and the whole thing will just blow up and out of proportion.
I think the US has very bad understanding of the Russian (or rather, Putin) way of thinking. Many Russia specialists were laid off when things seemed to be going well… so there’s not enough insight.
Then, Russians have never been great about cross cultural understanding and communication.
It all bears such a huge potential for fatal mistakes.
Russians are demonstrating their might but not planning to invade - they want guarantees that Ukraine won’t be part of NATO and there will be no NATO missiles there. The US misinterprets it and claims Russia wants to invade - which it doesn’t, but it’s easily provoked which I think the US doesn’t understand.
Another problem is that it is extremely hard for a typical Russian to admit mistakes. And the US seems to keep demanding it. It’s just massive miscommunication and I am worried…

The decision to join NATO:

- isn’t that entirely up to the Ukrainians?

I am the PP. i think Russians are thinking: eh, it’s a formality that the decision is up to the country, we all know who pulls the strings. They are making a mistake of saying it out loud, and of course the US denies it.
I wish the US said something non binding but soothing to the Russians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course not!
However I am very nervous. I have travel plans to one of the neighboring countries and I am afraid someone will freak out, the other side will react and the whole thing will just blow up and out of proportion.
I think the US has very bad understanding of the Russian (or rather, Putin) way of thinking. Many Russia specialists were laid off when things seemed to be going well… so there’s not enough insight.
Then, Russians have never been great about cross cultural understanding and communication.
It all bears such a huge potential for fatal mistakes.
Russians are demonstrating their might but not planning to invade - they want guarantees that Ukraine won’t be part of NATO and there will be no NATO missiles there. The US misinterprets it and claims Russia wants to invade - which it doesn’t, but it’s easily provoked which I think the US doesn’t understand.
Another problem is that it is extremely hard for a typical Russian to admit mistakes. And the US seems to keep demanding it. It’s just massive miscommunication and I am worried…

I think you're right but also that Russia does not understand the American way of thinking. Easy scenario for a miscalculation but there is nothing we can do except clearly lay out the potential consequences.

Yes, Russians are very bad at understanding the American way of thinking.
And way too direct

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jesus Christ.

Will stupid boomers/silent gen just die off already? Putin is still stuck in the cold war mindset. Biden doesn't even know what's going on. Xi wants to revert to the days of Mao, but with expansionist tendencies.

Boomers are going to leave their final terrible mark on the world by starting WW3.

Don't forget Erdogan, Duterte, and Netanyahu! Boomers every one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Iceland, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Italy, Hungary, Norway, and Bosnia? All of Europe was pretty much part of someone else's empire prior to WW1. Ukraine is no different or less legitimate than those countries.

I find Ukraine's entire region annoying but it is an important buffer. I definitely wouldn't bring them into NATO because it's impossible to defend geographically but they grow a lot ofnfood and the Black Sea has a lot of natural gas so it has important natural resources. They have a right to exist and the naive Neville Chamberlain-esque attitude you are showing is bad strategic judgement.

You say this like their food and their natural gas is somehow yours to manage and mind.

It's theira to mind not Russia's. Thoae two things are the reason why Russia wants to take them over.


But since we're talking about a grand re-organization of Russia's post WWI borders, should Konigsburg go back to Germany? Should Moldova go back to Romania? Murmansk to Finland? Chechnya? Sakhalin and the Kuriles to Japan?

Carry on - why stop there? (I should note that no sane country would want Chechnya, you know).

Poland should give Silesia, Pomerania and 80% of East Prussia back to Germany and thank Mr. Stalin for his generous gift. It should also apologize to the ethnic German population of these areas who were expelled over three months. I mean say what you want about USSR and Konigsberg, but it did give the Germans six years to "repatriate".

Lithuania should return its capital Vilnius to Poland, and Klaipeda to Germany, again with thanks to Mr. Stalin.

Romania, the ungrateful child that supported the Nazis, still received the gift of Transylvania (formerly Hungary). Justice now!

Bulgaria helped itself to South Dobruja, formerly Romania. Tsk, tsk.

And now to Ukraine, this proud, freedom-lovin' country. To restore justice post-WW2, it should return its western part (Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk) to Poland, who owned them 1939. Also, return Chernovitsy to Romania, who owned these lands till 1940. Also, return Zakarpatye to Hungary and Slovakia, who owned them till 1945. I mean honestly, say what you want about USSR's iron boot, but Ukraine made out like a bandit land-wise. Is it going to return these lands to their rightful owners or keep enjoyin' USSR's gifts?

Well Ukraine is the one that's fine with the status quo. It's Russia that wants Ukraine, even though it wasn't pre-Soviet. So, that's a question better asked to Putin. Is Russia going to give those lands, and others, back?

I'm sure it's fine with the status quo lol, I'm just saying that it's hardly a poster child for things like territorial integrity since it was happy to help itself to the lands expropriated from others.

I suspect if you were to ask him that question, he'd smile and say - oh how you giveth and then taketh away!

I mean the fact remains that what is now Ukraine has been part of the EU sphere, Poland/Lithuania and Austria/Hungary, from the 1300's until WW1. Before that if was a Kingdom. After that it was independent. Then it was Nazi. Then it was a Soviet Republic. Then it was an independent democracy. Russia has no claim and the Soviet Union wasn't just Russia. If any country has a claim it's Poland/Lithuania or Romania, all of which are NATO allies. Russia just wants to steal the natural gas. They want to embark on a good old fashioned oil war that will destabilize the world.

Look, let's get 'em all -- let's get 'em all now, while we got the muscle. F.P.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I mean the fact remains that what is now Ukraine has been part of the EU sphere, Poland/Lithuania and Austria/Hungary, from the 1300's until WW1. Before that if was a Kingdom. After that it was independent. Then it was Nazi. Then it was a Soviet Republic. Then it was an independent democracy. Russia has no claim and the Soviet Union wasn't just Russia. If any country has a claim it's Poland/Lithuania or Romania, all of which are NATO allies. Russia just wants to steal the natural gas. They want to embark on a good old fashioned oil war that will destabilize the world.

Are you making an argument that Ukraine, like, exists? In the physical space?

It's just so funny that you are arguing that Russia wants to steal "natural gas" when Ukraine has been throwing wild tantrums that Russia MUST! sell Ukraine its gas at under-market prices, and that it MUST transit its gas to Europe through Ukraine so that Ukraine can keep collecting transit fees. I mean if Ukraine has gas, why isn't it energy independent?

But maybe I'm deluded. I mean America knows SO MUCH about oil wars, it must understand one when it sees one. Maybe an oil war isn't destabilizing when America wages one, you know? The American ones are better. More virtuous somehow, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus Christ.

Will stupid boomers/silent gen just die off already? Putin is still stuck in the cold war mindset. Biden doesn't even know what's going on. Xi wants to revert to the days of Mao, but with expansionist tendencies.

Boomers are going to leave their final terrible mark on the world by starting WW3.

This. Can we stop reliving the 1910s? We already had a pandemic. I don't want a world war

I'm afraid there will be a last gasp boomer war. Sigh.

[Anonymous]

The U.S. will flood Ukraine with weapons like we did in Afghanistan during the 1980s. The Russian military will have a slow, drawn out, bloody fight that they may or may not win.

With that said, Russia may take a small part of Ukraine's East, then run grey zone operations closer to Kiev.