Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Karen should never have agreed to attend this mama's hb, IMO. She was wrong and should be held accountable, but I think 30 years for manslaughter is CRAZY! Rapists and murderers get less time.

30 years is probably the maximum sentence allowable by law, but very unlikely to be given. A few years ago in Northern Virginia, a man was convicted of *voluntary* manslaughter (not involuntary like the charge here) and sentenced to 10 years -- and he had stabbed someone multiple times, in the chest and back. I know this isn't the only charge she's facing, but that sentence still seems very unlikely.

If she is convicted, don't these types of cases usually get excessive sentences? Judges seem to be fine giving the minimum to a truly violent offender who no cares about but if there is alot of publicity, for political reasons she will not be treated like other convicts. Maybe someone else has the stats on this put don't women in general receive longer sentences than men?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Karen should never have agreed to attend this mama's hb, IMO. She was wrong and should be held accountable, but I think 30 years for manslaughter is CRAZY! Rapists and murderers get less time.

30 years is probably the maximum sentence allowable by law, but very unlikely to be given. A few years ago in Northern Virginia, a man was convicted of *voluntary* manslaughter (not involuntary like the charge here) and sentenced to 10 years -- and he had stabbed someone multiple times, in the chest and back. I know this isn't the only charge she's facing, but that sentence still seems very unlikely.

If she is convicted, don't these types of cases usually get excessive sentences? Judges seem to be fine giving the minimum to a truly violent offender who no cares about but if there is alot of publicity, for political reasons she will not be treated like other convicts. Maybe someone else has the stats on this put don't women in general receive longer sentences than men?

No, they are generally shorter but I think this case could be an exception if the judge want to make an example of her. I hope that's not the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Karen should never have agreed to attend this mama's hb, IMO. She was wrong and should be held accountable, but I think 30 years for manslaughter is CRAZY! Rapists and murderers get less time.

30 years is probably the maximum sentence allowable by law, but very unlikely to be given. A few years ago in Northern Virginia, a man was convicted of *voluntary* manslaughter (not involuntary like the charge here) and sentenced to 10 years -- and he had stabbed someone multiple times, in the chest and back. I know this isn't the only charge she's facing, but that sentence still seems very unlikely.

If she is convicted, don't these types of cases usually get excessive sentences? Judges seem to be fine giving the minimum to a truly violent offender who no cares about but if there is alot of publicity, for political reasons she will not be treated like other convicts. Maybe someone else has the stats on this put don't women in general receive longer sentences than men?

No, they are generally shorter but I think this case could be an exception if the judge want to make an example of her. I hope that's not the case.

I hope it is. And I say this as a home birth mom.

[Anonymous]

So if preventing unsafe practice is why midwives are supposed to be licensed and regulated, why did they wait for a death to crack down on her? Those who are familiar with the "homebirth community" know she could have been a lot more underground.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if preventing unsafe practice is why midwives are supposed to be licensed and regulated, why did they wait for a death to crack down on her? Those who are familiar with the "homebirth community" know she could have been a lot more underground.

What should they have done? Sent in a pregnant police officer undercover to have a homebirth and catch one person practicing midwifery without a license? If no one complains, this really isn't on the radar of law enforcement.

[Anonymous]

OK, I'm just trying to understand why the law exists if nobody is going to do anything about it unless there's a death or other serious complication, when they will apparently also be charging the midwife with a much more serious crime. Wouldn't doctors complain if they found out that a patient who came in with an acute problem had been under the care of an unlicensed health care provider of another kind (I have in fact heard of unlicensed dentistry and cosmetic procedures coming to the attention of the law.)

[Anonymous]

Thirty years for killing an innocent baby?

I think that's fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, I'm just trying to understand why the law exists if nobody is going to do anything about it unless there's a death or other serious complication, when they will apparently also be charging the midwife with a much more serious crime. Wouldn't doctors complain if they found out that a patient who came in with an acute problem had been under the care of an unlicensed health care provider of another kind (I have in fact heard of unlicensed dentistry and cosmetic procedures coming to the attention of the law.)

When complaints are made, the mother usually says that the midwife was her doula, or friend, or anything but a midwife. Wanting your healthcare provider to be your best friend is a two-edged sword- do you really want to believe that your friend is incompetent? Do you want to turn your friend in to the police, if you truly believe she did all that she could to save your baby and that the baby would have died in the hospital anyway? How are the police supposed to find people to arrest when nobody makes complaints?

It also sounds like no one is quite sure what the appropriate punishment is for this crime, so everything has been thrown at Karen and they'll see what actually sticks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Karen should never have agreed to attend this mama's hb, IMO. She was wrong and should be held accountable, but I think 30 years for manslaughter is CRAZY! Rapists and murderers get less time.

30 years is probably the maximum sentence allowable by law, but very unlikely to be given. A few years ago in Northern Virginia, a man was convicted of *voluntary* manslaughter (not involuntary like the charge here) and sentenced to 10 years -- and he had stabbed someone multiple times, in the chest and back. I know this isn't the only charge she's facing, but that sentence still seems very unlikely.

If she is convicted, don't these types of cases usually get excessive sentences? Judges seem to be fine giving the minimum to a truly violent offender who no cares about but if there is alot of publicity, for political reasons she will not be treated like other convicts. Maybe someone else has the stats on this put don't women in general receive longer sentences than men?

No, they are generally shorter but I think this case could be an exception if the judge want to make an example of her. I hope that's not the case.

I hope it is. And I say this as a home birth mom.

How could you say that without knowing what the facts actually were? Isn't that why there is a TRIAL before punishing someone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Karen should never have agreed to attend this mama's hb, IMO. She was wrong and should be held accountable, but I think 30 years for manslaughter is CRAZY! Rapists and murderers get less time.

30 years is probably the maximum sentence allowable by law, but very unlikely to be given. A few years ago in Northern Virginia, a man was convicted of *voluntary* manslaughter (not involuntary like the charge here) and sentenced to 10 years -- and he had stabbed someone multiple times, in the chest and back. I know this isn't the only charge she's facing, but that sentence still seems very unlikely.

If she is convicted, don't these types of cases usually get excessive sentences? Judges seem to be fine giving the minimum to a truly violent offender who no cares about but if there is alot of publicity, for political reasons she will not be treated like other convicts. Maybe someone else has the stats on this put don't women in general receive longer sentences than men?

No, they are generally shorter but I think this case could be an exception if the judge want to make an example of her. I hope that's not the case.

I hope it is. And I say this as a home birth mom.

How could you say that without knowing what the facts actually were? Isn't that why there is a TRIAL before punishing someone?

We know enough facts. She's a direct entry midwife with no license, who took on a client when every sign under the sun pointed to a very dangerous and risky delivery.

She has shown no regard for the law. She will continue to keep practicing if she gets off. She needs to be in jail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if preventing unsafe practice is why midwives are supposed to be licensed and regulated, why did they wait for a death to crack down on her? Those who are familiar with the "homebirth community" know she could have been a lot more underground.

What should they have done? Sent in a pregnant police officer undercover to have a homebirth and catch one person practicing midwifery without a license? If no one complains, this really isn't on the radar of law enforcement.

Yes, law enforcement should do that. This is a public health threat. People with no medical education, no liability insurance, no state license, and no supervision are putting out a shingle and portraying themselves as "experts in normal birth." A lot people think that a midwife is a midwife when in fact, there are two types of midwives: (1) Certified Nurse Midwives with legitimate degree and schooling and (2) law midwives who learn from buddies or from a home study correspondence course.

Law enforcement will have to be involved once a child or a mother dies. If this really is illegal, and lay midwifery is specifically illegal in a dozen states, then why shouldn't law enforcement get involved BEFORE there is a dead baby or dead mama?

This all sounds abstract. Let's say an otherwise healthy baby become a vegetable because of a home birth gone wrong. The baby will need a lifetime of caregiving shifts by dedicated relatives, physical therapy, special equipment, wheelchairs, bathtubs with a lift. Maybe all of this will cost $3.7 million over the course of the baby's expected life. The lay midwife doesn't have liability insurance or much less a city business license because she was practicing illegally. Let's say this isn't someone else's child. Let's say it's your niece or your grandson.

[Anonymous]

This study from Canada also states that performing breech births at home is not recommended.

Anonymous wrote:http://www.sogc.org/guidelines/documents/gui226CPG0906.pdf

I havent seen this document in the discussion. It makes for very interesting reading. Canada officially has very recently (2009) moved away from performing auto-c-sections for most breech presentations. Their guideline also supports the mother's choice to decide, and insists that she not be abandonned in labor regardless of what that choice may be. They are also very specifically concerned that very valuable skills have been lost over the past ten years as the world has adopted what they now view as an unwise auto c-section policy.

[Anonymous]

To answer the CPM below that critiqued my response...name me ONE scholarly article that has been published on homebirth that condones taking on a 43 year old primp with a breech presentation? Not to mention an article that condones practicing without a proper license??

It's ludicrous to put it out there that Karen's actions were above reproach and quite frankly, I don't buy into the whole "sister midwife" BS. What I care about is safely providing the homebirth option for women within my community and holding other midwives accountable to the same standard. I am sorry if that doesn't fit into your own paradigm.

Deb

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is yet another example of a CPM practicing illegally, beyond her scope of practice, exercising poor judgement as well as not having an appropriate risk-out criteria for her clientele. A 43 year old primip with a breech pregnancy is NOT low risk and should have been referred to an OB for care. How unfortunate for all involved.

Deb O'Connell CNM, CPM, MS (homebirth midwife)

Wow, Deb, way to bring down your sister midwife without personally knowing any of the details of this birth. That is terrible. As a CPM, I would hope that understand the concept of informed consent and the fact that some women will have extenuating circumstances which lead them to make a particular choice. How exactly was Karen practicing beyond her scope of practice? What makes you think that you can determine that she was exercising poor judgement?

Very disappointing to see this coming from another CPM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the CPM below that critiqued my response...name me ONE scholarly article that has been published on homebirth that condones taking on a 43 year old primp with a breech presentation? Not to mention an article that condones practicing without a proper license??

It's ludicrous to put it out there that Karen's actions were above reproach and quite frankly, I don't buy into the whole "sister midwife" BS. What I care about is safely providing the homebirth option for women within my community and holding other midwives accountable to the same standard. I am sorry if that doesn't fit into your own paradigm.

Deb

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is yet another example of a CPM practicing illegally, beyond her scope of practice, exercising poor judgement as well as not having an appropriate risk-out criteria for her clientele. A 43 year old primip with a breech pregnancy is NOT low risk and should have been referred to an OB for care. How unfortunate for all involved.

Deb O'Connell CNM, CPM, MS (homebirth midwife)

Wow, Deb, way to bring down your sister midwife without personally knowing any of the details of this birth. That is terrible. As a CPM, I would hope that understand the concept of informed consent and the fact that some women will have extenuating circumstances which lead them to make a particular choice. How exactly was Karen practicing beyond her scope of practice? What makes you think that you can determine that she was exercising poor judgement?

Very disappointing to see this coming from another CPM.

From 1995 through 2009, NARM rescinded four certificates of CPMs. Deb, I promise you right now the NARM henchwomen are gathered around their round folding table in Summertown, Tennessee, and taking scissors to your paperwork. Consider your CPM certificate in jeopardy! You broke the code of silence! Remember if you can't say something completely fabricated or misleading that propagates lay midwifery, then you shall not sayeth a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if preventing unsafe practice is why midwives are supposed to be licensed and regulated, why did they wait for a death to crack down on her? Those who are familiar with the "homebirth community" know she could have been a lot more underground.

What should they have done? Sent in a pregnant police officer undercover to have a homebirth and catch one person practicing midwifery without a license? If no one complains, this really isn't on the radar of law enforcement.

Yes, law enforcement should do that. This is a public health threat. People with no medical education, no liability insurance, no state license, and no supervision are putting out a shingle and portraying themselves as "experts in normal birth." A lot people think that a midwife is a midwife when in fact, there are two types of midwives: (1) Certified Nurse Midwives with legitimate degree and schooling and (2) law midwives who learn from buddies or from a home study correspondence course.

Law enforcement will have to be involved once a child or a mother dies. If this really is illegal, and lay midwifery is specifically illegal in a dozen states, then why shouldn't law enforcement get involved BEFORE there is a dead baby or dead mama?

This all sounds abstract. Let's say an otherwise healthy baby become a vegetable because of a home birth gone wrong. The baby will need a lifetime of caregiving shifts by dedicated relatives, physical therapy, special equipment, wheelchairs, bathtubs with a lift. Maybe all of this will cost $3.7 million over the course of the baby's expected life. The lay midwife doesn't have liability insurance or much less a city business license because she was practicing illegally. Let's say this isn't someone else's child. Let's say it's your niece or your grandson.

Ok, let's get our facts straight. Several states now license CPMs, including VA. It is only a few states where attending a home birth is explicitly illegal (but it is illegal for the midwife to attend, not for the parents to choose home birth, even in those states), and that doesn't matter here because this birth took place in VA. This particular midwife chose not to be licensed in VA, but she could have been had she applied for the license. We can haggle over the CPM credential, but I think it is a stretch to say that it includes "no medical education." Licensed CPMs attending home births is NOT illegal in VA. They are also not required by law to carry liability insurance. Ms. Carr was practicing illegally because she chose not to be licensed, but there are plenty of licensed CPMs in VA who attend home births legally and are reimbursed by insurance for doing so because they are licensed providers.