Why are people more sympathetic to Lindsay Clancy than Andrea Yates? (Child death mentioned)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do we know if she definitely had PPD? Or if she had a history of mental illness prior to pregnancy?

We know that she was hospitalized for 4-5 days in December. I don't think anyone on either side has claimed the latter, and if anything the defense is trying to claim she was the picture of health prior to the third child. But who

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If she knew her kids were dead, why wasn’t her next question, “what happened to them”? Why was the next question “do I need a lawyer?” She knew exactly what she did and she was well aware of what she was doing, when she was doing it.

Psychosis also doesn’t necessarily impair memory.

The denial in this thread about this symptom is really astounding.

Sounds to me like psychosis is pretty damn impossible to prove.

It can also be very hard to disprove. And that is much more true when someone alleging it has recently been on three different antipsychotic medications, among many others.

Well in this case the burden is on the defense to prove psychosis. The prosecution merely has to prove that she killed the kids. That doesn't seem too hard at this point. It will be on the defense to prove she was suffering from psychosis. Not on the state to prove that she wasn't.

This is America. The burden is on the prosecution, where it always belongs. In this case, they have to show that she killed the kids in an act that was a murder (or however they decide to charge it), vs in an act that was a manslaughter or an act that was negligence or an act that was an accident or an act that occurred in a time during which she lacked the capacity to understand the nature of her actions. And the nature of her crime itself, because it correctly shocks the conscience, can also be interpreted as strongly suggesting that she was off her rocker.

This isn't how it works, at all. We don't claim all criminals who commit shocking crimes must have been insane because their crime was so shocking. How moronic.

We actually do this quite regularly.

We might call them crazy in conversation, but we don't excuse their crimes or let them out of jail. Brian Kohberger murdered 4 college students with a military knife - is he criminally insane because his crime was so shocking?

Nobody is saying that she should get out of jail. The argument of people claiming that she is evil and premeditated this is that she is guilty of first degree murder, specifically. The point the rest of us have been arguing is: it seems very possible that she committed these acts without any of that other stuff being true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she knew her kids were dead, why wasn’t her next question, “what happened to them”? Why was the next question “do I need a lawyer?” She knew exactly what she did and she was well aware of what she was doing, when she was doing it.

Psychosis also doesn’t necessarily impair memory.

The denial in this thread about this symptom is really astounding.

Sounds to me like psychosis is pretty damn impossible to prove.

It can also be very hard to disprove. And that is much more true when someone alleging it has recently been on three different antipsychotic medications, among many others.

Well in this case the burden is on the defense to prove psychosis. The prosecution merely has to prove that she killed the kids. That doesn't seem too hard at this point. It will be on the defense to prove she was suffering from psychosis. Not on the state to prove that she wasn't.

This is America. The burden is on the prosecution, where it always belongs. In this case, they have to show that she killed the kids in an act that was a murder (or however they decide to charge it), vs in an act that was a manslaughter or an act that was negligence or an act that was an accident or an act that occurred in a time during which she lacked the capacity to understand the nature of her actions. And the nature of her crime itself, because it correctly shocks the conscience, can also be interpreted as strongly suggesting that she was off her rocker.

This isn't how it works, at all. We don't claim all criminals who commit shocking crimes must have been insane because their crime was so shocking. How moronic.

We actually do this quite regularly.

We might call them crazy in conversation, but we don't excuse their crimes or let them out of jail. Brian Kohberger murdered 4 college students with a military knife - is he criminally insane because his crime was so shocking?

Nobody is saying that she should get out of jail. The argument of people claiming that she is evil and premeditated this is that she is guilty of first degree murder, specifically. The point the rest of us have been arguing is: it seems very possible that she committed these acts without any of that other stuff being true.

What? Lots of people are saying she should not go to jail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Midwife here, can we please stop calling her a midwife? Some headlines mistakenly conflated being an L&D nurse with her being a midwife…she is not, nor has it appeared any where else that she was in midwifery school. You can verify any CNM in the country via their accrediting organization, The American Midwifery Certification Board, and she is not on it, as best as I can tell.

Now…can I also mention how salacious it is to keep bringing up the idea that she was a nurse or a midwife? If she were a hairdresser or an art curator would people keep leading with that? We are all just human. Medical professionals whatever the speed, go to other medical professionals for care…you can not treat yourself. And that goes double when you are in the midst of a mental health crisis.

The fact that she is a nurse is relevant here given how she murdered her kids especially if it can be shown she knew what she was doing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she knew her kids were dead, why wasn’t her next question, “what happened to them”? Why was the next question “do I need a lawyer?” She knew exactly what she did and she was well aware of what she was doing, when she was doing it.

Psychosis also doesn’t necessarily impair memory.

The denial in this thread about this symptom is really astounding.

Sounds to me like psychosis is pretty damn impossible to prove.

It can also be very hard to disprove. And that is much more true when someone alleging it has recently been on three different antipsychotic medications, among many others.

Well in this case the burden is on the defense to prove psychosis. The prosecution merely has to prove that she killed the kids. That doesn't seem too hard at this point. It will be on the defense to prove she was suffering from psychosis. Not on the state to prove that she wasn't.

This is America. The burden is on the prosecution, where it always belongs. In this case, they have to show that she killed the kids in an act that was a murder (or however they decide to charge it), vs in an act that was a manslaughter or an act that was negligence or an act that was an accident or an act that occurred in a time during which she lacked the capacity to understand the nature of her actions. And the nature of her crime itself, because it correctly shocks the conscience, can also be interpreted as strongly suggesting that she was off her rocker.

This isn't how it works, at all. We don't claim all criminals who commit shocking crimes must have been insane because their crime was so shocking. How moronic.

We actually do this quite regularly.

We might call them crazy in conversation, but we don't excuse their crimes or let them out of jail. Brian Kohberger murdered 4 college students with a military knife - is he criminally insane because his crime was so shocking?

Nobody is saying that she should get out of jail. The argument of people claiming that she is evil and premeditated this is that she is guilty of first degree murder, specifically. The point the rest of us have been arguing is: it seems very possible that she committed these acts without any of that other stuff being true.

What? Lots of people are saying she should not go to jail.

Every time I say that, I say she should get the death penalty

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like members of Lindsay’s Army of love are here and passionately defending a child murderer. Babies and children can be slaughtered but the opportunity to defend a homely, white, professionally unaccomplished, pill popping and attention seeking failure must never be squandered. The projection is real.

Precisely and they aren't letting go of the PPD defense either

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s paralyzed. she tried to slash her neck open. She is so drugged up she was catatonic in court. She likely tries to kill herself any chance she gets otherwise. I don’t understand the vengeance on here. This woman’s life is already a tragic forfeit.

I don’t care about vengeance I care about saving the next kids whose mom has a psychotic break. Can’t we focus on supporting moms. Maternity care in our country is abysmal. Daycare options are expensive and unavailable. This is the bitter result when people claim to treasure babies in uterine and treat their mothers like cattle.

Thank you. Can we pin this post?

I had a psychotic break during post partum depression following the birth of my twins. I did not qualify for more than a stabilization visit to the hospital but my husband stayed home from work for 8 weeks and my elderly parents came to live with us to provide 24 hour supervision. My inlaws paid for a night nurse for the babies for 8 weeks. My husband is a doctor and he realized just how serious this was. Who knows what would have happened otherwise.

If you knew me as a woman before or after this episode you would never in a million years think me capable of it. Even when I was going through it (directly before and after the episode of psychosis) I was moving through life: breastfeeding, taking the babies to the pediatrician, going on long walks. It wasn't like I was drooling or ragins or muttering or looking "off" or insane. Nothing of the sort.

Before the psychosis hit, were you experiencing the more typical symptoms of PPD?

Yes, I started getting slightly agitated in the evenings. Almost like an elderly person "sundowns". I also had a few panic attacks in evening. Something about the evenings were worse.

Of note, I had a dingbat psychiatrist who totally minimized the entire thing--and she was a woman! I was actively suicidal, totally psychotic and she was telling me that nothing was wrong. Women's mental health (especially as it relates to hormones) is so totally misunderstood and ignored.
We were involved in a church at the time and out of desperation, sought the counsel of a woman at church who was also a psychiatrist. She too minimized it all!! There I was--every fiber in my being telling me to step in front of a bus and and TWO psychiatrists were telling me I was just "depressed".

Looking back at this (it's now 16 years later) and I'm still remarkably hurt and angered that I wasn't listened to.

Thankfully my husband (many flaws that he has) did take it very seriously. He's a doctor and he literally cancelled 8 weeks of patient appointments to take care of the babies from 8am to 8pm daily because he didn't trust me with them. My parents moved in with us and as I mentioned, my inlaws gave us
some ridiculous amount of money (like $10K? --And they aren't wealthy) for a night nurse. It was a complete family effort to make it though this period of time alive and intact as a family.

I ended up having another pregnancy 5 years later (singleton, unplanned) and went to the psychiatrist the day I found out I was pregnant. I started on an antidepressant for that pregnancy (after much thought) and for whatever reason, had ZERO mental health issues post-partum.

It's now 16 years later and I haven't taken psych drugs since. But I will always be compassionate for anyone going through what I did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Clancy has my sympathy. She is a Labor & Delivery RN now midwife in 5 days a week outpatient treatment for postpartum depression—she was trying mightily to help herself as was her husband. Sounds like crossover to postpartum psychosis—she will be heartbroken at what she did under SEVERE mental illness. My sympathies to her children deceased, her infant, her husband and yes to her. A nightmare.

I have sympathy and she tried to off herself as well. I think Yates killed her kids and didn’t do anything to herself. But..I believe this post partum psychosis is real. She is going to have to live with this forever. The sad thing is I think a lot of this is tied to lack of sleep and so many people judge if a new mom wants help. I remember I got a lot of judgement for having a night nanny. Luckily I have a great husband who basically told me to put myself first and I did. Without sleep and without an opportunity to exercise or meet with a friend then a severe depression and can develop. It seems like her husband tried and maybe things went sideways with all the meds. Seraqual is a really powerful drug and cannot believe she was on that with others. Maybe the best thing in retrospect would have been inpatient treatment. Anyway new parents should really prioritize sleep and well being. The best thing you can do for a new mom is offer to watch the baby’s so they can nap or offer to take their other kids (if they have them) out so less chaos in the house.

And maybe don’t have three kids in less than five years. Even though posters will jump on here to claim that their mom had 8 kids and didn’t kill any of them! Still, 3 kids under five in this day and age is bananas. And she wasn’t even old or facing a biological clock. What is the rush? The third clearly out her over the edge because she was seemingly ok with the first two.

So, forced abortions like in China?

You are intentionally being obtuse to PP's point, which I admit wasn't artfully made. But no, PP likely wasn't advocating for forced abortions. For a woman like Clancy--who is among the luckiest of us by having access to more knowledge, money, family/friends, and institutional support than the majority of new mothers--I think it isn't unfair to wonder why she would have so many children so closely given the difficulties she had adjusting to motherhood.

She had the kids because she wanted to them show off and brag about her easy pregnancies and brag about how fertile she is, this is an actual thing. It’s sick. She didn’t think it through, like this is a lifelong commitment, it’s quite messy and not at all glamorous. The babies were all for show, many people are doing this now, having prop babies and pets.

Or maybe she's.... Catholic

Isn’t that kind of old school? Like a woman becoming a nun? Who the hell becomes a nun anymore or a priest for that matter. Get w the times, Catholics use birth control now.

No, practicing Catholics do not. But I'm not that sure they were fully practicing. I've read news stories where their parish priest mentions that he didn't know the Clancys, which tells me they probably didn't go to mass regularly or participate in church ministries/activities.

This is simply not true. American Catholics routinely use birth control and are equally represented in the population of women who get abortions, too. American PRACTICING Catholics. This is a well documented researched phenomenon so I recommend you do some research before asserting inaccuracies.

I recommend YOU do some basic research before asserting inaccuracies.

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2012/02/guttmacher-statistic-catholic-womens-contraceptive-use

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like members of Lindsay’s Army of love are here and passionately defending a child murderer. Babies and children can be slaughtered but the opportunity to defend a homely, white, professionally unaccomplished, pill popping and attention seeking failure must never be squandered. The projection is real.

Precisely and they aren't letting go of the PPD defense either

Her friends and husband have attested to her loving, generous nature. You people deciding she's evil are bizarre. She was on an insane cocktail of heavy-duty meds, at least eight of them and had sought treatment for severe PPD of her own accord. None of this syncs with an evil act, but rather a tragic breakdown. How about you let those who actually know her decide what they think about her character, and the forensic psychiatrist and toxicologist evaluating her determine her mental state at the time of her horrible act.

[Anonymous]

STOP DEMANDING THE DEATH PENALTY! Massachusetts is a civilized commonwealth and we do not execute people, period. Can we PLEASE quit with the barbaric blood lust comments?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like members of Lindsay’s Army of love are here and passionately defending a child murderer. Babies and children can be slaughtered but the opportunity to defend a homely, white, professionally unaccomplished, pill popping and attention seeking failure must never be squandered. The projection is real.

Precisely and they aren't letting go of the PPD defense either

Her friends and husband have attested to her loving, generous nature. You people deciding she's evil are bizarre. She was on an insane cocktail of heavy-duty meds, at least eight of them and had sought treatment for severe PPD of her own accord. None of this syncs with an evil act, but rather a tragic breakdown. How about you let those who actually know her decide what they think about her character, and the forensic psychiatrist and toxicologist evaluating her determine her mental state at the time of her horrible act.

Her character is not really relevant. Did she know what she was doing would kill them? I think the answer is yes. Since all of her outward behavior to others showed a lot of improvment, we really only have her word that she was experiencing new symptoms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s paralyzed. she tried to slash her neck open. She is so drugged up she was catatonic in court. She likely tries to kill herself any chance she gets otherwise. I don’t understand the vengeance on here. This woman’s life is already a tragic forfeit.

I don’t care about vengeance I care about saving the next kids whose mom has a psychotic break. Can’t we focus on supporting moms. Maternity care in our country is abysmal. Daycare options are expensive and unavailable. This is the bitter result when people claim to treasure babies in uterine and treat their mothers like cattle.

Thank you. Can we pin this post?

I had a psychotic break during post partum depression following the birth of my twins. I did not qualify for more than a stabilization visit to the hospital but my husband stayed home from work for 8 weeks and my elderly parents came to live with us to provide 24 hour supervision. My inlaws paid for a night nurse for the babies for 8 weeks. My husband is a doctor and he realized just how serious this was. Who knows what would have happened otherwise.

If you knew me as a woman before or after this episode you would never in a million years think me capable of it. Even when I was going through it (directly before and after the episode of psychosis) I was moving through life: breastfeeding, taking the babies to the pediatrician, going on long walks. It wasn't like I was drooling or ragins or muttering or looking "off" or insane. Nothing of the sort.

Before the psychosis hit, were you experiencing the more typical symptoms of PPD?

Yes, I started getting slightly agitated in the evenings. Almost like an elderly person "sundowns". I also had a few panic attacks in evening. Something about the evenings were worse.

Of note, I had a dingbat psychiatrist who totally minimized the entire thing--and she was a woman! I was actively suicidal, totally psychotic and she was telling me that nothing was wrong. Women's mental health (especially as it relates to hormones) is so totally misunderstood and ignored.
We were involved in a church at the time and out of desperation, sought the counsel of a woman at church who was also a psychiatrist. She too minimized it all!! There I was--every fiber in my being telling me to step in front of a bus and and TWO psychiatrists were telling me I was just "depressed".

Looking back at this (it's now 16 years later) and I'm still remarkably hurt and angered that I wasn't listened to.

Thankfully my husband (many flaws that he has) did take it very seriously. He's a doctor and he literally cancelled 8 weeks of patient appointments to take care of the babies from 8am to 8pm daily because he didn't trust me with them. My parents moved in with us and as I mentioned, my inlaws gave us
some ridiculous amount of money (like $10K? --And they aren't wealthy) for a night nurse. It was a complete family effort to make it though this period of time alive and intact as a family.

I ended up having another pregnancy 5 years later (singleton, unplanned) and went to the psychiatrist the day I found out I was pregnant. I started on an antidepressant for that pregnancy (after much thought) and for whatever reason, had ZERO mental health issues post-partum.

It's now 16 years later and I haven't taken psych drugs since. But I will always be compassionate for anyone going through what I did.

I’m sorry you went through this, but thank you for sharing your story. Agree that situations like yours are rarely understood, or taken seriously enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clancy has my sympathy. She is a Labor & Delivery RN now midwife in 5 days a week outpatient treatment for postpartum depression—she was trying mightily to help herself as was her husband. Sounds like crossover to postpartum psychosis—she will be heartbroken at what she did under SEVERE mental illness. My sympathies to her children deceased, her infant, her husband and yes to her. A nightmare.

I have sympathy and she tried to off herself as well. I think Yates killed her kids and didn’t do anything to herself. But..I believe this post partum psychosis is real. She is going to have to live with this forever. The sad thing is I think a lot of this is tied to lack of sleep and so many people judge if a new mom wants help. I remember I got a lot of judgement for having a night nanny. Luckily I have a great husband who basically told me to put myself first and I did. Without sleep and without an opportunity to exercise or meet with a friend then a severe depression and can develop. It seems like her husband tried and maybe things went sideways with all the meds. Seraqual is a really powerful drug and cannot believe she was on that with others. Maybe the best thing in retrospect would have been inpatient treatment. Anyway new parents should really prioritize sleep and well being. The best thing you can do for a new mom is offer to watch the baby’s so they can nap or offer to take their other kids (if they have them) out so less chaos in the house.

And maybe don’t have three kids in less than five years. Even though posters will jump on here to claim that their mom had 8 kids and didn’t kill any of them! Still, 3 kids under five in this day and age is bananas. And she wasn’t even old or facing a biological clock. What is the rush? The third clearly out her over the edge because she was seemingly ok with the first two.

So, forced abortions like in China?

You are intentionally being obtuse to PP's point, which I admit wasn't artfully made. But no, PP likely wasn't advocating for forced abortions. For a woman like Clancy--who is among the luckiest of us by having access to more knowledge, money, family/friends, and institutional support than the majority of new mothers--I think it isn't unfair to wonder why she would have so many children so closely given the difficulties she had adjusting to motherhood.

She had the kids because she wanted to them show off and brag about her easy pregnancies and brag about how fertile she is, this is an actual thing. It’s sick. She didn’t think it through, like this is a lifelong commitment, it’s quite messy and not at all glamorous. The babies were all for show, many people are doing this now, having prop babies and pets.

Or maybe she's.... Catholic

Isn’t that kind of old school? Like a woman becoming a nun? Who the hell becomes a nun anymore or a priest for that matter. Get w the times, Catholics use birth control now.

No, practicing Catholics do not. But I'm not that sure they were fully practicing. I've read news stories where their parish priest mentions that he didn't know the Clancys, which tells me they probably didn't go to mass regularly or participate in church ministries/activities.

This is simply not true. American Catholics routinely use birth control and are equally represented in the population of women who get abortions, too. American PRACTICING Catholics. This is a well documented researched phenomenon so I recommend you do some research before asserting inaccuracies.

I recommend YOU do some basic research before asserting inaccuracies.

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2012/02/guttmacher-statistic-catholic-womens-contraceptive-use

They are not following the tenants of the religion and therefore are not PRACTICING.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clancy has my sympathy. She is a Labor & Delivery RN now midwife in 5 days a week outpatient treatment for postpartum depression—she was trying mightily to help herself as was her husband. Sounds like crossover to postpartum psychosis—she will be heartbroken at what she did under SEVERE mental illness. My sympathies to her children deceased, her infant, her husband and yes to her. A nightmare.

I have sympathy and she tried to off herself as well. I think Yates killed her kids and didn’t do anything to herself. But..I believe this post partum psychosis is real. She is going to have to live with this forever. The sad thing is I think a lot of this is tied to lack of sleep and so many people judge if a new mom wants help. I remember I got a lot of judgement for having a night nanny. Luckily I have a great husband who basically told me to put myself first and I did. Without sleep and without an opportunity to exercise or meet with a friend then a severe depression and can develop. It seems like her husband tried and maybe things went sideways with all the meds. Seraqual is a really powerful drug and cannot believe she was on that with others. Maybe the best thing in retrospect would have been inpatient treatment. Anyway new parents should really prioritize sleep and well being. The best thing you can do for a new mom is offer to watch the baby’s so they can nap or offer to take their other kids (if they have them) out so less chaos in the house.

And maybe don’t have three kids in less than five years. Even though posters will jump on here to claim that their mom had 8 kids and didn’t kill any of them! Still, 3 kids under five in this day and age is bananas. And she wasn’t even old or facing a biological clock. What is the rush? The third clearly out her over the edge because she was seemingly ok with the first two.

So, forced abortions like in China?

You are intentionally being obtuse to PP's point, which I admit wasn't artfully made. But no, PP likely wasn't advocating for forced abortions. For a woman like Clancy--who is among the luckiest of us by having access to more knowledge, money, family/friends, and institutional support than the majority of new mothers--I think it isn't unfair to wonder why she would have so many children so closely given the difficulties she had adjusting to motherhood.

She had the kids because she wanted to them show off and brag about her easy pregnancies and brag about how fertile she is, this is an actual thing. It’s sick. She didn’t think it through, like this is a lifelong commitment, it’s quite messy and not at all glamorous. The babies were all for show, many people are doing this now, having prop babies and pets.

Or maybe she's.... Catholic

Isn’t that kind of old school? Like a woman becoming a nun? Who the hell becomes a nun anymore or a priest for that matter. Get w the times, Catholics use birth control now.

No, practicing Catholics do not. But I'm not that sure they were fully practicing. I've read news stories where their parish priest mentions that he didn't know the Clancys, which tells me they probably didn't go to mass regularly or participate in church ministries/activities.

This is simply not true. American Catholics routinely use birth control and are equally represented in the population of women who get abortions, too. American PRACTICING Catholics. This is a well documented researched phenomenon so I recommend you do some research before asserting inaccuracies.

I recommend YOU do some basic research before asserting inaccuracies.

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2012/02/guttmacher-statistic-catholic-womens-contraceptive-use

They are not following the tenants of the religion and therefore are not PRACTICING.

No one actually cares and this isn’t relevant to the case at hand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clancy has my sympathy. She is a Labor & Delivery RN now midwife in 5 days a week outpatient treatment for postpartum depression—she was trying mightily to help herself as was her husband. Sounds like crossover to postpartum psychosis—she will be heartbroken at what she did under SEVERE mental illness. My sympathies to her children deceased, her infant, her husband and yes to her. A nightmare.

I have sympathy and she tried to off herself as well. I think Yates killed her kids and didn’t do anything to herself. But..I believe this post partum psychosis is real. She is going to have to live with this forever. The sad thing is I think a lot of this is tied to lack of sleep and so many people judge if a new mom wants help. I remember I got a lot of judgement for having a night nanny. Luckily I have a great husband who basically told me to put myself first and I did. Without sleep and without an opportunity to exercise or meet with a friend then a severe depression and can develop. It seems like her husband tried and maybe things went sideways with all the meds. Seraqual is a really powerful drug and cannot believe she was on that with others. Maybe the best thing in retrospect would have been inpatient treatment. Anyway new parents should really prioritize sleep and well being. The best thing you can do for a new mom is offer to watch the baby’s so they can nap or offer to take their other kids (if they have them) out so less chaos in the house.

And maybe don’t have three kids in less than five years. Even though posters will jump on here to claim that their mom had 8 kids and didn’t kill any of them! Still, 3 kids under five in this day and age is bananas. And she wasn’t even old or facing a biological clock. What is the rush? The third clearly out her over the edge because she was seemingly ok with the first two.

So, forced abortions like in China?

You are intentionally being obtuse to PP's point, which I admit wasn't artfully made. But no, PP likely wasn't advocating for forced abortions. For a woman like Clancy--who is among the luckiest of us by having access to more knowledge, money, family/friends, and institutional support than the majority of new mothers--I think it isn't unfair to wonder why she would have so many children so closely given the difficulties she had adjusting to motherhood.

She had the kids because she wanted to them show off and brag about her easy pregnancies and brag about how fertile she is, this is an actual thing. It’s sick. She didn’t think it through, like this is a lifelong commitment, it’s quite messy and not at all glamorous. The babies were all for show, many people are doing this now, having prop babies and pets.

Or maybe she's.... Catholic

Isn’t that kind of old school? Like a woman becoming a nun? Who the hell becomes a nun anymore or a priest for that matter. Get w the times, Catholics use birth control now.

No, practicing Catholics do not. But I'm not that sure they were fully practicing. I've read news stories where their parish priest mentions that he didn't know the Clancys, which tells me they probably didn't go to mass regularly or participate in church ministries/activities.

This is simply not true. American Catholics routinely use birth control and are equally represented in the population of women who get abortions, too. American PRACTICING Catholics. This is a well documented researched phenomenon so I recommend you do some research before asserting inaccuracies.

I recommend YOU do some basic research before asserting inaccuracies.

https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2012/02/guttmacher-statistic-catholic-womens-contraceptive-use

They are not following the tenants of the religion and therefore are not PRACTICING.

No one actually cares and this isn’t relevant to the case at hand.

Tell that to the person (you?) that insists the Clancys wanted multiple kids in close succession because they are Catholic.