Boycott/ Divest and Pull your College App from All States which violate Our Daughters' Civil Rights

[Anonymous]

This thread has clearly devolved into one religious wingnut posting again and again about how the left is “pro murder” and how women aren’t allowed to have sex for pleasure. Unfortunately, you can’t murder a fetus because it isn’t alive and women can do whatever they want.

I think that due to the history of murdering people for their “cause” (an imaginary person in the sky) religious activists against abortion should be investigated and put on domestic terrorism watch lists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread has clearly devolved into one religious wingnut posting again and again about how the left is “pro murder” and how women aren’t allowed to have sex for pleasure. Unfortunately, you can’t murder a fetus because it isn’t alive and women can do whatever they want.

I think that due to the history of murdering people for their “cause” (an imaginary person in the sky) religious activists against abortion should be investigated and put on domestic terrorism watch lists.

DP interesting because to me it seems like this thread is dominated by one left wing abortion zealot…..likely the wacky, hysterical OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

You are trying way too hard with this and it is tiresome.

Truth can hurt.

Yawn. Most pregnancies are wanted and the pregnant women tries to have a safe pregnancy and a healthy baby. Some are unwanted and are terminated for many different reasons. None of them are any of your business if they are not yours or of you are not invited in.

63 million should be worth more than a yawn.

63 women who had control of their own body, their own future, their own life.

Disgusting that you want to crush the personal liberties of each and every one of those women. To oppress them. Take away their basic rights.

Not 63 women. 63 MIllion

Yes. A typo. Thank you.

63 million women who have a better life today because they had the personal liberty to make decisions about their bodies and their lives.

Where are people getting this number that’s being thrown around? The CDC number for 2021 was around 600,000 abortions. That’s only 1/100 of 63 million, so 63 million sounds too high even for all the years since Roe. Is it a worldwide estimate?

60+ million abortions in US since Roe vs Wade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

You are trying way too hard with this and it is tiresome.

Truth can hurt.

Yawn. Most pregnancies are wanted and the pregnant women tries to have a safe pregnancy and a healthy baby. Some are unwanted and are terminated for many different reasons. None of them are any of your business if they are not yours or of you are not invited in.

63 million should be worth more than a yawn.

63 women who had control of their own body, their own future, their own life.

Disgusting that you want to crush the personal liberties of each and every one of those women. To oppress them. Take away their basic rights.

Not 63 women. 63 MIllion

Yes. A typo. Thank you.

63 million women who have a better life today because they had the personal liberty to make decisions about their bodies and their lives.

Where are people getting this number that’s being thrown around? The CDC number for 2021 was around 600,000 abortions. That’s only 1/100 of 63 million, so 63 million sounds too high even for all the years since Roe. Is it a worldwide estimate?

60+ million abortions in US since Roe vs Wade

from CDC and Guttmacher Institute

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread has clearly devolved into one religious wingnut posting again and again about how the left is “pro murder” and how women aren’t allowed to have sex for pleasure. Unfortunately, you can’t murder a fetus because it isn’t alive and women can do whatever they want.

I think that due to the history of murdering people for their “cause” (an imaginary person in the sky) religious activists against abortion should be investigated and put on domestic terrorism watch lists.

DP interesting because to me it seems like this thread is dominated by one left wing abortion zealot…..likely the wacky, hysterical OP.

Well you would be wrong then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

I think it’s more of an anti science, extreme religious position (in the sense of having a belief that defies logical reasoning) to think that a
being isn’t human and worthy of protection if it’s in the womb at 40+ weeks but it magically becomes a human being worthy of protection once it comes out of the womb. I see extreme pro choice advocates make the argument that if a baby can’t survive on its own then it should be a woman’s choice to end it’s life and her choice alone. Using that logic why shouldn’t it be legal to either abandon or kill a 2 week old baby since it can’t survive on its own either?

I am for the right to abortion up to around the first trimester, but people advocating for abortions on demand at any time for any reason do not make a compelling moral argument and are going to be on the wrong side of history once science advances and we learn more things about the mental and physical development of third trimester+ fetuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

You are trying way too hard with this and it is tiresome.

Truth can hurt.

Yawn. Most pregnancies are wanted and the pregnant women tries to have a safe pregnancy and a healthy baby. Some are unwanted and are terminated for many different reasons. None of them are any of your business if they are not yours or of you are not invited in.

63 million should be worth more than a yawn.

63 women who had control of their own body, their own future, their own life.

Disgusting that you want to crush the personal liberties of each and every one of those women. To oppress them. Take away their basic rights.

Not 63 women. 63 MIllion

Yes. A typo. Thank you.

63 million women who have a better life today because they had the personal liberty to make decisions about their bodies and their lives.

Where are people getting this number that’s being thrown around? The CDC number for 2021 was around 600,000 abortions. That’s only 1/100 of 63 million, so 63 million sounds too high even for all the years since Roe. Is it a worldwide estimate?

Probably forced birther lie.

They aren’t good with facts or reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread has clearly devolved into one religious wingnut posting again and again about how the left is “pro murder” and how women aren’t allowed to have sex for pleasure. Unfortunately, you can’t murder a fetus because it isn’t alive and women can do whatever they want.

I think that due to the history of murdering people for their “cause” (an imaginary person in the sky) religious activists against abortion should be investigated and put on domestic terrorism watch lists.

DP interesting because to me it seems like this thread is dominated by one left wing abortion zealot…..likely the wacky, hysterical OP.

Well you would be wrong then.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

You are trying way too hard with this and it is tiresome.

Truth can hurt.

Yawn. Most pregnancies are wanted and the pregnant women tries to have a safe pregnancy and a healthy baby. Some are unwanted and are terminated for many different reasons. None of them are any of your business if they are not yours or of you are not invited in.

63 million should be worth more than a yawn.

63 women who had control of their own body, their own future, their own life.

Disgusting that you want to crush the personal liberties of each and every one of those women. To oppress them. Take away their basic rights.

Not 63 women. 63 MIllion

Yes. A typo. Thank you.

63 million women who have a better life today because they had the personal liberty to make decisions about their bodies and their lives.

Where are people getting this number that’s being thrown around? The CDC number for 2021 was around 600,000 abortions. That’s only 1/100 of 63 million, so 63 million sounds too high even for all the years since Roe. Is it a worldwide estimate?

Probably forced birther lie.

They aren’t good with facts or reality.

As noted above, abortion data has been collected and monitored by the Guttmacher Institute and the CDC. Facts matter, not just your opinion and emotions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

Is it ok to feed your kid crap food or expose them to secondhand smoke?

Parents have made bad choices since the beginning of time. Are you going to judge and penalize them next?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will.

DP. Right, but according to your "logic," a fetus is *not* a child, nor are you a parent until that fetus is born. Right? So why does it matter what we put into our bodies when pregnant? We'll wait.

The clear difference is that a fetus is a potential person. Any harm done by substances ingested by a pregnant woman are harms that become apparent *after birth* and affect the now-child going forward. Even when women are arrested for drug use during pregnancy, the arrest happens after a child is born with drugs in its system. Again, for ongoing harm of what is now a child and no longer a potential child. Until the birth m, you can’t prove legal harm. (I believe there have been some cases where a fetus died in utero or was stillborn, but those rest on medically questionable foundations; fetuses die for many natural reasons and drug use is less likely to be a cause than you might think.)

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

You are trying way too hard with this and it is tiresome.

Truth can hurt.

Yawn. Most pregnancies are wanted and the pregnant women tries to have a safe pregnancy and a healthy baby. Some are unwanted and are terminated for many different reasons. None of them are any of your business if they are not yours or of you are not invited in.

63 million should be worth more than a yawn.

63 women who had control of their own body, their own future, their own life.

Disgusting that you want to crush the personal liberties of each and every one of those women. To oppress them. Take away their basic rights.

Not 63 women. 63 MIllion

Yes. A typo. Thank you.

63 million women who have a better life today because they had the personal liberty to make decisions about their bodies and their lives.

Where are people getting this number that’s being thrown around? The CDC number for 2021 was around 600,000 abortions. That’s only 1/100 of 63 million, so 63 million sounds too high even for all the years since Roe. Is it a worldwide estimate?

Probably forced birther lie.

They aren’t good with facts or reality.

As noted above, abortion data has been collected and monitored by the Guttmacher Institute and the CDC. Facts matter, not just your opinion and emotions.

Link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

I think it’s more of an anti science, extreme religious position (in the sense of having a belief that defies logical reasoning) to think that a
being isn’t human and worthy of protection if it’s in the womb at 40+ weeks but it magically becomes a human being worthy of protection once it comes out of the womb. I see extreme pro choice advocates make the argument that if a baby can’t survive on its own then it should be a woman’s choice to end it’s life and her choice alone. Using that logic why shouldn’t it be legal to either abandon or kill a 2 week old baby since it can’t survive on its own either?

I am for the right to abortion up to around the first trimester, but people advocating for abortions on demand at any time for any reason do not make a compelling moral argument and are going to be on the wrong side of history once science advances and we learn more things about the mental and physical development of third trimester+ fetuses.

+1 Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread has clearly devolved into one religious wingnut posting again and again about how the left is “pro murder” and how women aren’t allowed to have sex for pleasure. Unfortunately, you can’t murder a fetus because it isn’t alive and women can do whatever they want.

I think that due to the history of murdering people for their “cause” (an imaginary person in the sky) religious activists against abortion should be investigated and put on domestic terrorism watch lists.

This thread could be constructive if everyone started from a position that there are competing interests at stake, being the pregnant woman’s liberty and the developing human’s life. At some point during the pregnancy it’s reasonable to prioritize the developing human’s life. As support, most countries ban abortions after a certain number of gestational weeks (and the Roe decision did the same). So we could be talking about where and under what conditions prioritizing the pregnant human’s liberty (and allow termination of the pregnancy) is reasonable. And reasonably that could be drawn in a lot of places—if closer to conception, then perhaps that’s only “reasonable” if there are family assistance programs. That’s all for political debate.

But no— This thread is about bludgeoning the other side with the terms “forced birth” or “pro-murder”. Anyone using those terms doesn’t want to discuss how to reasonably balance the competing interests.

[Anonymous]

Isn’t forced birth an accurate term, though? I don’t know what else you’d call it.

Pro-murder seems inaccurate because nobody agrees on whether an embryo can be murdered. But women are literally forced to give birth in states with no access to abortion. I don’t see how that phrase is wrong.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:When will people understand that it isn't about abortion. It is about autonomy. It is about the right of a woman to control her body. Banning abortions is not about abortion, it is about controlling women. I wouldn't get one ever, if my daughter wanted one, I would take her but I would be sad about it. How I feel about abortion or how I feel about anything shouldn't take precedence over another human being's autonomy in a civilized society.

Do you not get the pro-life position at all? They think it’s murder. You can’t tell someone who believes abortion is murder that they should be pro-choice about it. Your focus should be on explaining your views as to why you believe it’s not murder

Whether it is murder is irrelevant. The issue is whether a woman has bodily autonomy in the US period.

PP’s point is that you will not win over / convert many pro-life (anti-abortion) person with the autonomy argument. They consider the fetus a person and among, if not the, most vulnerable of all humans. They believe that having consensual sex (as opposed to rape) means that the adults involved are open to the possibility of creating a new life whether they use birth control or not. If they aren’t open to that then they should abstain. That’s the mindset.

They should recognize that their beliefs are based on their religion and they shouldn’t force their religion on others.

Believe whatever you want in your own home but don’t force it on others.

I’m an atheistic who shares this mindset. And why shouldn’t I “force” this belief on you?
Casey Anthony obviously believed she was within her right to kill her toddler. Is it wrong for us to force our moral objection to this on her?
The point is you need to focus your argument on explaining why it’s not murder. Not simply telling people who feel otherwise that committing murder should be a choice.

Because it’s not legally or morally murder. You aren’t a person until you are born.

So you are okay for a mother to choose to smoke crack, pot, cigs while pregnant? They can drink heavily too because they are not Carrying by a person?

Love the logic from the pro murder crowd!

I'm pro-choice, but this is an excellent point. If the fetus isn't a person, why worry about any of that?

How far down the line are we going to judge and penalize bad parenting?

No one should be forced to carry a pregnancy, give birth, or become a parent against their will. Period.

You're (deliberately?) missing the point. If the fetus isn't a human (according to you), then a pregnant woman is not a parent. So why do you consider it "bad parenting" if a pregnant woman eats poorly and/or uses drugs and alcohol while pregnant?

I never said a fetus isn’t human.

I said it’s not a “person” - not legally.

When a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer is accused of 2 murders. Not a woman and her fetus, but a woman and her baby.

Not a 14th amendment person.

No social security number, no child support, etc.

So do you think the murderer should not be charged for the pregnancy-related death?

People wouldn’t be charged with “murder” since the fetus isn’t a legal person. Feticide is treated differently than homicide.