Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:so, a question I feel I can ask you all, because this has been such a smart and thoughtful DCUM thread.

I am white and grew up middle class/flyover state/not connected, and without being specific, my creative work has landed in the (art field here) equivalent of the NYT. I went to a state school.

DD, whose side I am 100 percent on, went to Harvard. I understand that she grew up without money and will never be part of the rarified old money circles that DCUM is obsessed with; me neither! But wasn't Harvard supposed to put her in spitting distance or same level as these people, if not leapfrog them? Because of the connections and access it gave her alone? I mean, it's not like Ng and Larson are Kennedys or Bushes or something -- they are average people.

I guess this state school grad is asking: How can Larson "punch down" on a Harvard grad due to class? I understand that Larson is totally out of line; but I am not totally following DD cast as a *class* underdog.

I ask this honestly and without agenda; as mentioned, team DD and Larson is a bad person/bad artist: How is a Harvard grad a subject of classism from less-than-Harvard grads?

She went to Scripps, then Harvard Divinity School. This may have another negative against her by the Chunky Monkies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:so, a question I feel I can ask you all, because this has been such a smart and thoughtful DCUM thread.

I am white and grew up middle class/flyover state/not connected, and without being specific, my creative work has landed in the (art field here) equivalent of the NYT. I went to a state school.

DD, whose side I am 100 percent on, went to Harvard. I understand that she grew up without money and will never be part of the rarified old money circles that DCUM is obsessed with; me neither! But wasn't Harvard supposed to put her in spitting distance or same level as these people, if not leapfrog them? Because of the connections and access it gave her alone? I mean, it's not like Ng and Larson are Kennedys or Bushes or something -- they are average people.

I guess this state school grad is asking: How can Larson "punch down" on a Harvard grad due to class? I understand that Larson is totally out of line; but I am not totally following DD cast as a *class* underdog.

I ask this honestly and without agenda; as mentioned, team DD and Larson is a bad person/bad artist: How is a Harvard grad a subject of classism from less-than-Harvard grads?

Because it's not the credentials. It's whether you are smoothed over and learn how to talk/dress/act like these other kids. The ones who were groomed by their parents to fit in and make connections and succeed and all that. If you get to Harvard and still can't figure out how to do that, then you won't make the connections that would take you in and propel you up.

[Anonymous]

This thread has better writing than that story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, a question I feel I can ask you all, because this has been such a smart and thoughtful DCUM thread.

I am white and grew up middle class/flyover state/not connected, and without being specific, my creative work has landed in the (art field here) equivalent of the NYT. I went to a state school.

DD, whose side I am 100 percent on, went to Harvard. I understand that she grew up without money and will never be part of the rarified old money circles that DCUM is obsessed with; me neither! But wasn't Harvard supposed to put her in spitting distance or same level as these people, if not leapfrog them? Because of the connections and access it gave her alone? I mean, it's not like Ng and Larson are Kennedys or Bushes or something -- they are average people.

I guess this state school grad is asking: How can Larson "punch down" on a Harvard grad due to class? I understand that Larson is totally out of line; but I am not totally following DD cast as a *class* underdog.

I ask this honestly and without agenda; as mentioned, team DD and Larson is a bad person/bad artist: How is a Harvard grad a subject of classism from less-than-Harvard grads?

Because it's not the credentials. It's whether you are smoothed over and learn how to talk/dress/act like these other kids. The ones who were groomed by their parents to fit in and make connections and succeed and all that. If you get to Harvard and still can't figure out how to do that, then you won't make the connections that would take you in and propel you up.

^ And also I missed she went to HDS, not undergrad Harvard. But I think either way my point would still hold that it's not the credential, it's how you present and whether you can pass for one of *them*.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She went to a local college, I think, and Harvard Divinity school, which is different. You don't go to divinity school to increase your class status I think. There is a good discussion in the MetaFilter thread about this.

She went to Scripps (still fairly prestigious) for undergrad on a full scholarship, which is impressive. She's smart. And a good writer. Dawn, if by any tiny chance you are reading this, I hope you kick major ass in the future as a writer. You have a loyal reader in me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, a question I feel I can ask you all, because this has been such a smart and thoughtful DCUM thread.

I am white and grew up middle class/flyover state/not connected, and without being specific, my creative work has landed in the (art field here) equivalent of the NYT. I went to a state school.

DD, whose side I am 100 percent on, went to Harvard. I understand that she grew up without money and will never be part of the rarified old money circles that DCUM is obsessed with; me neither! But wasn't Harvard supposed to put her in spitting distance or same level as these people, if not leapfrog them? Because of the connections and access it gave her alone? I mean, it's not like Ng and Larson are Kennedys or Bushes or something -- they are average people.

I guess this state school grad is asking: How can Larson "punch down" on a Harvard grad due to class? I understand that Larson is totally out of line; but I am not totally following DD cast as a *class* underdog.

I ask this honestly and without agenda; as mentioned, team DD and Larson is a bad person/bad artist: How is a Harvard grad a subject of classism from less-than-Harvard grads?

She went to Scripps, then Harvard Divinity School. This may have another negative against her by the Chunky Monkies

Harvard is unique among American universities and more similar to the British model in that the schools are highly segregated especially financially. For example, The divinity school is very poor, while the business school is extremely wealthy. Divinity is also a very unique discipline- not necessarily considered academically rigorous in the way of theology or even philosophy but more about a religious calling and studying lives of moral sacrifice. The college has the endowment but it is not shared amount the schools, although I think the divinity school gets bailed out occasionally since they have insubstantial revenue. Divinity school students would rarely interact with graduate arts and humanities students at the college, for example. It is not a similar circle. That said the name probably opens doors and maybe helps her feel like she can play with the big writers. Would we consider John brown to have a white savior complex? This is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so, a question I feel I can ask you all, because this has been such a smart and thoughtful DCUM thread.

I am white and grew up middle class/flyover state/not connected, and without being specific, my creative work has landed in the (art field here) equivalent of the NYT. I went to a state school.

DD, whose side I am 100 percent on, went to Harvard. I understand that she grew up without money and will never be part of the rarified old money circles that DCUM is obsessed with; me neither! But wasn't Harvard supposed to put her in spitting distance or same level as these people, if not leapfrog them? Because of the connections and access it gave her alone? I mean, it's not like Ng and Larson are Kennedys or Bushes or something -- they are average people.

I guess this state school grad is asking: How can Larson "punch down" on a Harvard grad due to class? I understand that Larson is totally out of line; but I am not totally following DD cast as a *class* underdog.

I ask this honestly and without agenda; as mentioned, team DD and Larson is a bad person/bad artist: How is a Harvard grad a subject of classism from less-than-Harvard grads?

She went to Scripps, then Harvard Divinity School. This may have another negative against her by the Chunky Monkies

Harvard is unique among American universities and more similar to the British model in that the schools are highly segregated especially financially. For example, The divinity school is very poor, while the business school is extremely wealthy. Divinity is also a very unique discipline- not necessarily considered academically rigorous in the way of theology or even philosophy but more about a religious calling and studying lives of moral sacrifice. The college has the endowment but it is not shared amount the schools, although I think the divinity school gets bailed out occasionally since they have insubstantial revenue. Divinity school students would rarely interact with graduate arts and humanities students at the college, for example. It is not a similar circle. That said the name probably opens doors and maybe helps her feel like she can play with the big writers. Would we consider John brown to have a white savior complex? This is

…where this whole area gets interesting I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread has better writing than that story.

I know right. Like I'm reading this thread thinking just who do Larson, Kokler, Grub Street, etc think they are because DCUM (granted we do have a lot of highly educated folks) is out-writing all those fools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread has better writing than that story.

I know right. Like I'm reading this thread thinking just who do Larson, Kokler, Grub Street, etc think they are because DCUM (granted we do have a lot of highly educated folks) is out-writing all those fools.

To be fair, being better than Larson's story is a low hurdle.

[Anonymous]

The lies and gaslighting keep piling up.





I can't think of a single person I'd give a going away gift to who I didn't at least consider a friend in the loosest sense. With personal details? And I'm sorry, but if ANYONE went out of their way to attend a loved one's funeral (even if it was, it seems, an ex), and offer me support in that time, that person is in my Good Book for life. Full stop.

I am so angry on Dawn's behalf. I can't imagine the years of agony this caused her, and honestly, I can't blame her in the slightest for adopting a scorched earth policy, after TWO YEARS of detaching myself from the situation and trying to defuse.

[Anonymous]

^ gah, *herself, not myself. Clearly this is starting to me affect me personally lol.

[Anonymous]

I think the thing is, we all know what gaslighting feels like. And it has happened to us all as this story unfolds. I'm never going to trust something written by Kolker again. I'm never going to buy a book from Ng again, or any of the Chunky Monkeys. So it does feel personal, because we were also gaslit here, and made part of the experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the thing is, we all know what gaslighting feels like. And it has happened to us all as this story unfolds. I'm never going to trust something written by Kolker again. I'm never going to buy a book from Ng again, or any of the Chunky Monkeys. So it does feel personal, because we were also gaslit here, and made part of the experience.

Wow. Wow!! This is such a crucial point, and I’d never have gotten to this thought on my own. We were lied to and deceived, too, and some of us feel somewhere between sheepish and ashamed for not understanding what Dawn went through. This is it. Thank you, PP.

[Anonymous]

What the WHAT Does anyone have a source for this?

[Anonymous]

Okay, I found it. It's from the paywall interview he did today and this is from Off the Record: