Cops in TX tackle & block desperate parents, while they let shooter rampage thru the school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

The whole premise of that scenario is that the couldn't get a key. They got a key. We don't know when they started looking for one or why the School's Chief of Police didn't have one of his own.

The principal didn’t have a master key in his/her office?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

I thought it was confirmed he was not wearing body armor? I find it hard to believe anything coming out of TX at this point. Will wait for DOJ.

So you are also saying that a school feature built to keep the kids safe from guns did not work as intended........again, the source of all these problems are guns.

Again, the door was left open

I'm an aerospace engineer. In grad school, I took a human factors engineering class. You need to design systems around how people are likely to use, and potentially misuse, them. People prop open secure doors. It happens everywhere and has happened forever. If a door is your only defense against a massacre, then you've failed as a solution developer.

I fully agree with you. And schools and democrat politicians repeatedly refuse enhanced security because the former don’t think fortifying is ‘good for the kids’ and the latter use only see gun control as a solution. It’s clear trained teachers who had access to securely stored weapons on the inside was really the only solution that would have helped. As an engineer, you should understand how those safes work and why they are secure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If that description above of the timeline is true then it shows why the only solution here is to ban assault rifles (I’d love to ban all guns but I’ll take ARs for now).

Steel doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Locked doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Good guys with guns- meant to protect kids, didn’t do that at all

ARs are weapons of mass destruction. They need to be banned

He should have never gained access to the inside. He did so through a propped open door. That point can’t be made enough because I’m sure it happens in schools all across the country. I would guess this kid was smart enough to cased the place a few times to learn the weakest point of entry. I’ll bet good money that this door was commonly propped open.

In addition, he gave multiple warnings to the public on various social media platforms well in advance. If the social media platforms had done their job and notified the local police, they could have notified gun shops to tip them off if this kid tried to purchase. Did the social media platforms do this? They seem to be very efficient at doing so with white Trump supporters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

I thought it was confirmed he was not wearing body armor? I find it hard to believe anything coming out of TX at this point. Will wait for DOJ.

So you are also saying that a school feature built to keep the kids safe from guns did not work as intended........again, the source of all these problems are guns.

Again, the door was left open

I'm an aerospace engineer. In grad school, I took a human factors engineering class. You need to design systems around how people are likely to use, and potentially misuse, them. People prop open secure doors. It happens everywhere and has happened forever. If a door is your only defense against a massacre, then you've failed as a solution developer.

Very nice point. Unfortunately you’re talking to people who think Covid is a hoax and science is the devil.

Would you agree that some of the science we were given was faulty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

I thought it was confirmed he was not wearing body armor? I find it hard to believe anything coming out of TX at this point. Will wait for DOJ.

So you are also saying that a school feature built to keep the kids safe from guns did not work as intended........again, the source of all these problems are guns.

Again, the door was left open

I'm an aerospace engineer. In grad school, I took a human factors engineering class. You need to design systems around how people are likely to use, and potentially misuse, them. People prop open secure doors. It happens everywhere and has happened forever. If a door is your only defense against a massacre, then you've failed as a solution developer.

I fully agree with you. And schools and democrat politicians repeatedly refuse enhanced security because the former don’t think fortifying is ‘good for the kids’ and the latter use only see gun control as a solution. It’s clear trained teachers who had access to securely stored weapons on the inside was really the only solution that would have helped. As an engineer, you should understand how those safes work and why they are secure.

No. It is NOT a good idea to rely on teachers to shoot it out with a madman. What a ridiculous idea.

REPUBLICANS CAN END THIS WITH GUN CONTROL AND THEY ARE CHOOSING NOT TO.

Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s the ‘door propped’ peddler and the ‘mom blame’ peddler.

Both grasping for ways to distract focus from the real problems here.

1) Access to guns.
2) Cowards that carry guns.

Bizarre and stupid snark.

Reports have stated that the door was propped. Very unfortunate. Are you claiming that this wasn’t a factor? To be clear: guns are the overarching and most important problem by far. I’d like to see the second amendment repealed. The other problem was obviously law enforcement. Good guys with guns who didn’t act correctly per the reports.

You call my post bizarre and stupid, then go on to reiterate what I just said plus add your propped door agenda to it.

There are deliberate factors and there are everyday mistakes.

You are conflating a door being propped into the same category of the deliberate actions of purchasing an assault rifle to murder children.
You are also conflating a propped door with the negligent actions of trained officers with guns that refused to help stop the massacre of children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is anyone else afraid for Biden and his trip to Texas. Every elected republican official in the state has gone right up to the line in threatening Biden and out and out said he is not the legitimate president. Biden stole the election. The police force who will be providing the perimeter security is incompetent and openly hostile to Biden. It is very worrying.

Presumably he knows what security he can and can't trust. Mike pence knew not to get in that car on Jan 6th.

Of the rhetoric pushed out by Fox News and the elected republicans is very scary. This is the type of environment where you do not know what will happen.

A coup from the secrets service? The suspects that would attempt such a thing would be known. Pence knew so why wouldn't others?

I mean, I think I know what you're saying, but I'm confused. Are y'all suggesting Pence was worried for his safety with certain SS agents? That sounds far out, but I don't know the facts here ... ?

He never mentioned his own safety that I read. He refused to get in a car and be driven away from the capital because he understood that would help enable the coup plot.

Okay - that makes more sense. Thanks for the update.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is anyone else afraid for Biden and his trip to Texas. Every elected republican official in the state has gone right up to the line in threatening Biden and out and out said he is not the legitimate president. Biden stole the election. The police force who will be providing the perimeter security is incompetent and openly hostile to Biden. It is very worrying.

Presumably he knows what security he can and can't trust. Mike pence knew not to get in that car on Jan 6th.

Of the rhetoric pushed out by Fox News and the elected republicans is very scary. This is the type of environment where you do not know what will happen.

A coup from the secrets service? The suspects that would attempt such a thing would be known. Pence knew so why wouldn't others?

I mean, I think I know what you're saying, but I'm confused. Are y'all suggesting Pence was worried for his safety with certain SS agents? That sounds far out, but I don't know the facts here ... ?

What kind of person has such a limited imagination that they cannot imagine that a person who is basically bad cannot stand up at a crutial moment and do something good? Of course a person who is basically bad can be admired for an isolated good action.

He never mentioned his own safety that I read. He refused to get in a car and be driven away from the capital because he understood that would help enable the coup plot.

Do you honestly think Pence was that heroic? Y'all spend four years demonizing him.

What kind of person has such a limited imagination that they cannot imagine that a person who is basically bad cannot stand up at a crucial moment and do something good? Of course a person who is basically bad can be admired for an isolated good action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If that description above of the timeline is true then it shows why the only solution here is to ban assault rifles (I’d love to ban all guns but I’ll take ARs for now).

Steel doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Locked doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Good guys with guns- meant to protect kids, didn’t do that at all

ARs are weapons of mass destruction. They need to be banned

He should have never gained access to the inside. He did so through a propped open door. That point can’t be made enough because I’m sure it happens in schools all across the country. I would guess this kid was smart enough to cased the place a few times to learn the weakest point of entry. I’ll bet good money that this door was commonly propped open.

In addition, he gave multiple warnings to the public on various social media platforms well in advance. If the social media platforms had done their job and notified the local police, they could have notified gun shops to tip them off if this kid tried to purchase. Did the social media platforms do this? They seem to be very efficient at doing so with white Trump supporters.

That's common sense. But the current system and current laws do not have any accomodation for common sense.

They do "background checks" at the gun shops, but the background checks only deal with whether the person was a felon or if they were ruled mentally incompetent by a judge. Plus, private sales and transfers are allowed without background checks in many parts of the country. Apart from that, no national database or infrastructure for dealing with any other red flags and stopping them at the gun dealers actually exists. And it's not as though it couldn't - after all, if I want to buy a single box of Sudafed, my ID gets entered into a national database along with what I bought and when and if I try to go back and buy too much more it instantly gets flagged. But if an 18 year old kid is buying a bunch of AR-15s and thousands of rounds of ammunition, or if some sketchy character in Indiana next door to Chicago is buying dozens of guns a week none of that is even tracked let alone flagged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

I thought it was confirmed he was not wearing body armor? I find it hard to believe anything coming out of TX at this point. Will wait for DOJ.

So you are also saying that a school feature built to keep the kids safe from guns did not work as intended........again, the source of all these problems are guns.

Again, the door was left open

I'm an aerospace engineer. In grad school, I took a human factors engineering class. You need to design systems around how people are likely to use, and potentially misuse, them. People prop open secure doors. It happens everywhere and has happened forever. If a door is your only defense against a massacre, then you've failed as a solution developer.

I fully agree with you. And schools and democrat politicians repeatedly refuse enhanced security because the former don’t think fortifying is ‘good for the kids’ and the latter use only see gun control as a solution. It’s clear trained teachers who had access to securely stored weapons on the inside was really the only solution that would have helped. As an engineer, you should understand how those safes work and why they are secure.

No. It is NOT a good idea to rely on teachers to shoot it out with a madman. What a ridiculous idea.

REPUBLICANS CAN END THIS WITH GUN CONTROL AND THEY ARE CHOOSING NOT TO.

Period.

+1
I can't believe this argument to arm teachers. The same teachers many on the right have been demonizing for the past few years. Really? You don't trust them to teach your children, but you DO trust them with guns in the classroom?
My mother and MIL are both retired elementary school teachers, and I can't imagine them engaging in a shootout with a lunatic armed with an AR-15, in a classroom full of small children. Why don't we just restrict such weapons, put in place some sensible gun laws, and work on mental health in this country, instead of expecting our teachers to also function as security?
-former Republican voters who has been driven away by the nonsense of the last few years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s the ‘door propped’ peddler and the ‘mom blame’ peddler.

Both grasping for ways to distract focus from the real problems here.

1) Access to guns.
2) Cowards that carry guns.

Bizarre and stupid snark.

Reports have stated that the door was propped. Very unfortunate. Are you claiming that this wasn’t a factor? To be clear: guns are the overarching and most important problem by far. I’d like to see the second amendment repealed. The other problem was obviously law enforcement. Good guys with guns who didn’t act correctly per the reports.

You call my post bizarre and stupid, then go on to reiterate what I just said plus add your propped door agenda to it.

There are deliberate factors and there are everyday mistakes.

You are conflating a door being propped into the same category of the deliberate actions of purchasing an assault rifle to murder children.
You are also conflating a propped door with the negligent actions of trained officers with guns that refused to help stop the massacre of children.

I am conflating none of those. You are seeing things that aren’t there. You are guessing, incorrectly, about motive. You are getting more on track, though, with nuanced observations—yes, there is a difference between an inadvertent occurrence and a broad policy failure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a good explanation of what went down from Tim Sumner:

"The steel doors designed to keep killers out were used by the shooter to keep police out. w/o a key to open them, police would've had to use infantry techniques (explosives) to breech the outer walls. The kids and teachers were not the enemy. Blowing holes in walls, police indiscriminately spraying the room with bullets, or engaging a full body armored shooter using kids as human shields were NOT good options. (Imagine THAT forensic pathology report it would have generated, proof police killed X number of the innocent during entry). police entered Robb Elementary hallway (inverted T-shaped) 2-3 minutes after the shooter. The shooter had locked the doors and was slaughtering. From doorway, shooter sprayed police (who lacked cover) with bullets, wounding 2. Shooter wore full body armor. Police best option was to fall back to 2 corners feet away from CRs 111 and 112 doors and get backup. They needed keys or tools to open those doors. The police could not yet know who was alive, wounded, or dead in those CRs. Police needed level 4 shields to survive long enough upon entry to take down shooter for they did not know where within the 2 adjoining classrooms he would be when they entered. 9-1-1 calls were coming in. However, the police still lacked entry tools. Small kids playing dead, disoriented, crying for help provided little useful information (NOT at all the kids' fault). Sporadic fire from inside 2 adjoining CRs only momentarily provided police a fix on shooter, and he'd shot at police trying to peek through small windows on doors. Again, police could not place effective fire on moving shooter. He was barricaded in, could move within and between 2 CRs, and there were still living innocents inside. Were the police supposed to crashed through the outer windows, spray those 2 classrooms with bullets, and return fire once the shooter showed himself? That might be the right way during war but saving lives (not accepting "collateral damage") is what police are trained to do. So, the police waited for an entry team (drove 70 miles in 40 minutes), located a master key, listened, watched, and planned the entry of two doors. Meanwhile, "spotters"peering through the outer windows tried to get a fix on the shooter's location inside and relay to the entry team(s). If he was below the outer window, they would not have seen him. THIS IS IMPORTANT: Police told a Congressman afterwards the shooter emerged from a closet and and fired at them once entry was made. Upon entry, at least 1 police officer was wounded from the shooter's bullets passing above, below, outside those shields. The police had to expose body parts to get a shot. That is NOT cowardice on the part of the police; they wanted to live long enough to eliminate the shooter.

The ONLY people responsible for the deaths & wounded innocent kids & teachers ARE the shooter and anyone who helped him commit mass murder.

God bless the children, teachers, & police

P.S. If shooter positioned inside in the doorway between the 2 classrooms, he would have shielded himself from police viewing & snipers outside the school wing. He could observe police attempting to peak through small windows on doors. Adjoining door likely looked like a closet.Inner doorway between classrooms 111 & 112 was not a flat structure. It was a closet with doors on both sides through which teachers and students and the shooter could pass. Inside it, shooter could observe outer doors, both classrooms, and be shielded from outside window view. Uvalde gunman emerged from classroom closet firing as Border Patrol agents entered, officials say

Graphic of layout of classrooms/closet here:

https://ibb.co/qysc9pt

I thought it was confirmed he was not wearing body armor? I find it hard to believe anything coming out of TX at this point. Will wait for DOJ.

So you are also saying that a school feature built to keep the kids safe from guns did not work as intended........again, the source of all these problems are guns.

Again, the door was left open

I'm an aerospace engineer. In grad school, I took a human factors engineering class. You need to design systems around how people are likely to use, and potentially misuse, them. People prop open secure doors. It happens everywhere and has happened forever. If a door is your only defense against a massacre, then you've failed as a solution developer.

I fully agree with you. And schools and democrat politicians repeatedly refuse enhanced security because the former don’t think fortifying is ‘good for the kids’ and the latter use only see gun control as a solution. It’s clear trained teachers who had access to securely stored weapons on the inside was really the only solution that would have helped. As an engineer, you should understand how those safes work and why they are secure.

No. It is NOT a good idea to rely on teachers to shoot it out with a madman. What a ridiculous idea.

REPUBLICANS CAN END THIS WITH GUN CONTROL AND THEY ARE CHOOSING NOT TO.

Period.

+1
I can't believe this argument to arm teachers. The same teachers many on the right have been demonizing for the past few years. Really? You don't trust them to teach your children, but you DO trust them with guns in the classroom?
My mother and MIL are both retired elementary school teachers, and I can't imagine them engaging in a shootout with a lunatic armed with an AR-15, in a classroom full of small children. Why don't we just restrict such weapons, put in place some sensible gun laws, and work on mental health in this country, instead of expecting our teachers to also function as security?
-former Republican voters who has been driven away by the nonsense of the last few years

+1

Every 18 yo seems to know where to buy tactical body armor these days. Are you suggesting that that body armor be the dress code for teachers and student at elementary schools going forward.

Remember, there was an armed security guard at the grocery store in Buffalo. Still didn't prevent the killings.

[Anonymous]

The people suggesting we arm teachers are nuts. Do you have any familiarity with today’s schools? They’re severely understaffed. They’re struggling to get substitutes. Teachers are having to babysit someone else’s class during their planning periods. Which teachers would you nominate for tactical training, knowing they’d have to leave a class alone to go pursue and engage with a shooter? What kind of extra compensation will we offer that teacher to take on that kind of incredibly dangerous role? How will the police determine who the “bad guy” is when there are multiple people firing guns? If a gun is secured so safely that students cannot access it, how are the designated teachers supposed to get to it and retrieve it while a shooting spree is going on?

Most importantly, if we’ve seen multiple instances of police officers being reluctant to engage someone with an AR-15, what makes you think every school has teachers who will be willing to do it if, God forbid, the time comes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The people suggesting we arm teachers are nuts. Do you have any familiarity with today’s schools? They’re severely understaffed. They’re struggling to get substitutes. Teachers are having to babysit someone else’s class during their planning periods. Which teachers would you nominate for tactical training, knowing they’d have to leave a class alone to go pursue and engage with a shooter? What kind of extra compensation will we offer that teacher to take on that kind of incredibly dangerous role? How will the police determine who the “bad guy” is when there are multiple people firing guns? If a gun is secured so safely that students cannot access it, how are the designated teachers supposed to get to it and retrieve it while a shooting spree is going on?

Most importantly, if we’ve seen multiple instances of police officers being reluctant to engage someone with an AR-15, what makes you think every school has teachers who will be willing to do it if, God forbid, the time comes?

and it is the same people who refuse to pay enough taxes to have a proper school that are making this crazy proposal. I think they want everybody to home school. They are the American Taliban

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If that description above of the timeline is true then it shows why the only solution here is to ban assault rifles (I’d love to ban all guns but I’ll take ARs for now).

Steel doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Locked doors- meant to protect kids, made the situation more dangerous
Good guys with guns- meant to protect kids, didn’t do that at all

ARs are weapons of mass destruction. They need to be banned

He should have never gained access to the inside. He did so through a propped open door. That point can’t be made enough because I’m sure it happens in schools all across the country. I would guess this kid was smart enough to cased the place a few times to learn the weakest point of entry. I’ll bet good money that this door was commonly propped open.

In addition, he gave multiple warnings to the public on various social media platforms well in advance. If the social media platforms had done their job and notified the local police, they could have notified gun shops to tip them off if this kid tried to purchase. Did the social media platforms do this? They seem to be very efficient at doing so with white Trump supporters.

The fault is easy access to high powered guns. You are ignoring that.