Van Hollen in El Salvador

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm through with trying to reason with someone who has ZERO interest in anything but protecting this MS13 gang member.

He appears to have been a wife beater but there is zero proof of him being "MS-13". Grow up!

That’s a great argument. He beats his Wife, but he’s a good guy. Keep defending him, now we know you’re ok with wife beaters.

Which US law implements a punishment of life imprisonment in cruel and unusual conditions for domestic violence?

He may not be a wonderful person but the real argument here is not whether he's a good person or not, it's whether the US should be able to send people to countries that will violate their human rights.

So either you're too stupid to understand the bigger picture or you're in support of violating every ideal that makes America what it is. Which is it? Idiot or fascist?

He was sent to his home country and they are keeping him in jail because they think he’s a gang member.

Your argument is we have the authority and/or obligation to keep a citizen of another country in the USA even though they have not been convicted of a crime? So at this point we should keep ALL El Salvador citizens that are currently in the USA from leaving right?

You’re either too stupid to understand the USA has zero say in what ANY country does with their own people, or think international law does not matter. Which is it? Stupid or uneducated?

YES! Are you kidding?! Did you think this was some sort of "gotcha?!" Everyone on American soil is entitled to American justice which means we don't send people from American soil to places where they will be subject to conditions America has deemed unacceptable for humans.

Even if we accept your premise as true that America has zero say in what any country does with their own people (which isn't even true to begin with considering America's LONG history of interfering with other countries) it's completely irrelevant because THE PEOPLE ARE IN AMERICA FIRST YOU ABSOLUTE DUNCE! We may have zero say in what they do but when they're in America we can JUST NOT SEND THEM TO THE PLACE WHERE THEIR RIGHTS WILL BE VIOLATED AND WE HAVE ZERO SAY IN IT!

This is so incredibly obvious to anyone with a brain that it leads to the conclusion that you're either too stupid to live or you actually understand this fact and don't care because you view brown people as not deserving of human rights.

1. He’s currently not in the USA so we have no authority.
2. I’m brown you moron.

Well, if you really are brown (which I highly doubt) then you are a traitor for siding with the MAGAs!

Oops, your racism is showing. Your view that brown people are unable to entertain the full spectrum of political philosophies available to whites was the tell. I guess you are saying blacks should stay on the plantation and be good little natural born democrats? That’s mighty progressive of you. Tell us more about what they are not supposed to do.

The entire episode just reveals that white conservatives and brown conservatives never gave two sh#ts about the Constitution.

Say it out loud: “I’m a MAGA conservative that hates the Constitution and loves power.”

Say it now with your morning coffee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:*the executive is knowingly playing a fake game of semantics rather than following the law

Sounds like what Biden did for 4 years, as did Obama and Clinton for 8 years. Were you complaining then, or only now?

A true test of your belief is whether you hold it when your party is in power.

I think this guy should have his day in immigration court, and then deported (or kept in El Salvador of the hold is lifted). His behavior in the US would not seem to be what Americans want in lawful immigrants (or even asylum seekers).

Knowingly player semantics to disappear whoever they want from US soil to a prison in a foreign country? Do tell.

In the words of ultra conservative, Federalist Society, 4th Circuit Judge Wilkerson

"It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear. "

I think I may repeatedly post this quite to every single reply moving forward.

DP. I agree they should have had his paperwork in order. I just find Kilmar extremely unsympathetic and cannot reach the level of outrage that is being requested here. It was an error that can easily be corrected- he can just be reprocessed.

The second problem is one of clarity. The US didn't "stash Kilmar in a foreign prison." He was returned to his native El Salvador, where he was imprisoned *by the government of El Salvador* pursuant to *their laws.* While Trump is indeed asserting the right to have US prisoners kept in foreign prisons, that isn't what is actually happening in Kilmar's case. He is being kept by his own government. This is further illustrated by the fact that SCOTUS asked Trump to "facilitate the return" of Kilmar. It's an acknowledgement that we are not the only party with control here, in fact, El Salvador is denying the request. If we had control, they would just send him back.

They never said return, they said release. If El Salvador will not release him, nothing we can do.

[Anonymous]

The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

[Anonymous]

I saw the bond denial orders.

Does anyone have links to the removal order and the withholding order?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw the bond denial orders.

Does anyone have links to the removal order and the withholding order?

Apparently no one has the removal order. The government said in court they didn't have one.
The judge put in his opinion that obviously there is a removal order, it is implied by the withholding of removal order.
This has been linked in the other thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

How does it prevent others from being disappeared?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

How does it prevent others from being disappeared?

If the executive can "whoops, my bad!" other US residents to El Salvador and then say "well sorry, too late and they won't send them back anyways!" and do so without penalty, then who is safe moving forward? Including US citizens? This is a constitutional crisis not well addressed in our Constitution - the executive not following an order by the Supreme Court. It should be a default cause for impeachment, frankly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

How does it prevent others from being disappeared?

"The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our
constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear."

...

"Moreover, the government has conceded that Abrego Garcia was wrongly or “mistakenly” deported. Why then should it not make what was wrong,
right? The Supreme Court’s decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give “due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.”"

...

"“Facilitation” does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country’s prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. “Facilitation” does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here. Allowing all this would “facilitate” foreign detention more than it would domestic return. It would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood.""

"The Executive possesses enormous powers to prosecute and to deport, but with powers come restraints. If today the Executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home?∗ And what assurance shall there be that the Executive will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies? The threat, even if not the actuality, would always be present, and the Executive’s obligation to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” would lose its meaning. U.S. CONST. art. II, § 3; see also id. art. II, § 1, cl. 8."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

How does it prevent others from being disappeared?

"The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our
constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear."

...

"Moreover, the government has conceded that Abrego Garcia was wrongly or “mistakenly” deported. Why then should it not make what was wrong,
right? The Supreme Court’s decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give “due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.”"

...

"“Facilitation” does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country’s prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. “Facilitation” does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here. Allowing all this would “facilitate” foreign detention more than it would domestic return. It would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood.""

"The Executive possesses enormous powers to prosecute and to deport, but with powers come restraints. If today the Executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home?∗ And what assurance shall there be that the Executive will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies? The threat, even if not the actuality, would always be present, and the Executive’s obligation to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” would lose its meaning. U.S. CONST. art. II, § 3; see also id. art. II, § 1, cl. 8."

How does bringing him back prevent this from happening to a US citizen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:*the executive is knowingly playing a fake game of semantics rather than following the law

Sounds like what Biden did for 4 years, as did Obama and Clinton for 8 years. Were you complaining then, or only now?

A true test of your belief is whether you hold it when your party is in power.

I think this guy should have his day in immigration court, and then deported (or kept in El Salvador of the hold is lifted). His behavior in the US would not seem to be what Americans want in lawful immigrants (or even asylum seekers).

Knowingly player semantics to disappear whoever they want from US soil to a prison in a foreign country? Do tell.

In the words of ultra conservative, Federalist Society, 4th Circuit Judge Wilkerson

"It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter. But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear. "

I think I may repeatedly post this quite to every single reply moving forward.

DP. I agree they should have had his paperwork in order. I just find Kilmar extremely unsympathetic and cannot reach the level of outrage that is being requested here. It was an error that can easily be corrected- he can just be reprocessed.

The second problem is one of clarity. The US didn't "stash Kilmar in a foreign prison." He was returned to his native El Salvador, where he was imprisoned *by the government of El Salvador* pursuant to *their laws.* While Trump is indeed asserting the right to have US prisoners kept in foreign prisons, that isn't what is actually happening in Kilmar's case. He is being kept by his own government. This is further illustrated by the fact that SCOTUS asked Trump to "facilitate the return" of Kilmar. It's an acknowledgement that we are not the only party with control here, in fact, El Salvador is denying the request. If we had control, they would just send him back.

They never said return, they said release. If El Salvador will not release him, nothing we can do.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Democrat pressure campaign to get Garcia released continues. Cue the MAGA outrage machine!

From the NYT:

Four Democratic lawmakers have arrived in El Salvador, where they intend to continue pressing for the release of a Maryland resident who was wrongly deported to a prison in the Central American country.

Representatives Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Alejandro Frost of Florida, Yassamin Ansari of Arizona and Maxine E. Dexter of Oregon landed on Sunday. They are hoping their trip will focus more attention on the Trump administration’s lack of action after the Supreme Court ordered the government to facilitate the return of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.

The four members of Congress are scheduled to meet with U.S. Embassy officials and human rights groups in San Salvador, the capital, on Monday. They say that in addition to calling for Mr. Abrego Garcia’s release, they are there to find out the status of others deported from the United States and detained in El Salvador.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/us/politics/abrego-garcia-el-salvador-democrats.html

Spare me any follow up about defending criminals.

They are literally helping the US comply with a Supreme Court order because the Executive branch is willfully not. The significance of this is the importance of checks and balances to prevent other US residents from being disappeared to foreign prisons without due process (and here I am paraphrasing the conservative justice appeals court ruling that the MAGAs do not care about).

How does it prevent others from being disappeared?

"The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our
constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear."

...

"Moreover, the government has conceded that Abrego Garcia was wrongly or “mistakenly” deported. Why then should it not make what was wrong,
right? The Supreme Court’s decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give “due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.”"

...

"“Facilitation” does not permit the admittedly erroneous deportation of an individual to the one country’s prisons that the withholding order forbids and, further, to do so in disregard of a court order that the government not so subtly spurns. “Facilitation” does not sanction the abrogation of habeas corpus through the transfer of custody to foreign detention centers in the manner attempted here. Allowing all this would “facilitate” foreign detention more than it would domestic return. It would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood.""

"The Executive possesses enormous powers to prosecute and to deport, but with powers come restraints. If today the Executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home?∗ And what assurance shall there be that the Executive will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies? The threat, even if not the actuality, would always be present, and the Executive’s obligation to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” would lose its meaning. U.S. CONST. art. II, § 3; see also id. art. II, § 1, cl. 8."

How does bringing him back prevent this from happening to a US citizen?

Bringing him back, probably not, but the US actually showing effort to show they "attempted to facilitate" shows compliance with a Supreme Court order and helps to prevent a constitutional crisis. Or are you ok with the Executive doing whatever it wants regardless of the Supreme Court rulings, moving forward? I am not. Do you think the unanimous Appeals ruling is dramatic about its implication?

[Anonymous]

He’s a grandstanding buffoon more concerned with theatrics than policy……typical democrat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He’s a grandstanding buffoon more concerned with theatrics than policy……typical democrat

Trump is the grandstanding one "more concerned with theatrics than policy" on this particular case actually, per the ruling of the 4th circuit appeals court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Illegal immigrants are not entitled to lengthy court processes nor to the due process US citizens get. You snuck it illegally, you can be forcibly removed.

Total effing lie.

Read the Constitution.