TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

[Anonymous]

Current process has no means to differentiate between hardworking meritorious URM versus a random URM student. My URM student with significant achievements in competitive math was not selected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the high school ranking is just about selective admissions then who cares? Isn’t the school kind of irrelevant at that point?

It's pointing out that there has been a deterioration in student quality.

It's one thing to say we are willing to trade merit for racial balancing. But they are trying to pretend that there has been a reduction in student quality compared to before.
With that said, this is one data point. if we see this continue for the next few years, I think it will be hard to argue that w3e haven't sacrificed merit for racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Current process has no means to differentiate between hardworking meritorious URM versus a random URM student. My URM student with significant achievements in competitive math was not selected.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M award for inventing a treatment for skin cancer. I don't know that he even applied to TJ but he is at woodson.
Oh, and he's black.
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/virginia-teen-develops-cancer-treatment-soap-wins-national-science-prize/

[Anonymous]

This is why colleges are returning to standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current process has no means to differentiate between hardworking meritorious URM versus a random URM student. My URM student with significant achievements in competitive math was not selected.

There is a rising sophomore at woodson that won the 3M award for inventing a treatment for skin cancer. I don't know that he even applied to TJ but he is at woodson.
Oh, and he's black.
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/virginia-teen-develops-cancer-treatment-soap-wins-national-science-prize/

Regardless of whether the student is an Ethiopian or Asian immigrant, as long as the family prioritizes education, the student can excel based on merit. Equity handouts dont achieve excellence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315
[/quote

False.

Groups who have benefitted more than white students in terms of % or # are bolded.

From class of 2024 to class of 2025:
underrep school +142 526%
well/over rep -42 -10%
private -36 -71%

not low income -71 -15%
low income +135 4500%

male +14 5%
female +50 25%

asian -56 -16%
black +29 290%
hispanic +46 288%
white +37 43%
other +8 42%

all URM: +83 184%

Asian low income +50 5000%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I haven’t seen the demographics of kids from low income families but the judges who wrote majority opinion declaring no discrimination said:
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."


https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
page 16

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the high school ranking is just about selective admissions then who cares? Isn’t the school kind of irrelevant at that point?

It's pointing out that there has been a deterioration in student quality.

It's one thing to say we are willing to trade merit for racial balancing. But they are trying to pretend that there has been a reduction in student quality compared to before.
With that said, this is one data point. if we see this continue for the next few years, I think it will be hard to argue that w3e haven't sacrificed merit for racism.

DP TJ's 2025 ranking is likely to be similar to 2024's ranking as a similar number of students failed SOLs in both 2021-22 (basis for 2024 proficiency rating) and 2022-23 (basis for 2025 proficiency rating). The 2027 ranking may show additional weakness.

In addition to proficiency, US News also includes the share of 12th graders who received a passing AP score in its calculations. For the rankings through 2026, this component reflects students admitted under the prior system. The 2027 ranking will be the first which uses the AP passing share for students admitted under the new system. With at least 6-7 students in the new admissions cohort failing SOLs in each of the last two years, it may be challenging for these students to achieve a passing AP score; passing an SOL reflects minimum competency whereas passing an AP reflects college level competency.

"The AP exam data used in the [2024] analysis is for 12th grade students in the 2021-2022 school year." https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/articles/rankings-faq

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the unfortunate issue here are the academic results that are rolling in with the new process. Scores are much lower on SOLs and PSATs and achieved Math.

It also shows the new system isn’t selecting for geniuses that were left out because rich kids gamed the admissions. It actually confirms that the previous admits were just academically better students… in many areas.

They were better test takers, no doubt about it - because the previous process overselected for test taking ability. It's no more complicated than that.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily smarter or more deserving of the opportunities that TJ provides, and it certainly doesn't mean that TJ was a better academic environment before.

A lot of those kids did more than just take tests.

And id venture that it does mean they are smarter. Maybe the new process shows it selected for smarter kids as defined by some other metric that isn’t performance and knowledge displayed through curriculum and scores or competitions. I don’t know what that metric is though.

The school/process isn’t selecting the best anymore as commonly defined by standard academic performance. It’s selecting who they want. Two totally different things. And that’s fine.

I think many want to pretend they can have both, the performance of the previous reputation and the diversity that many want. The current selection process is over selecting URMs who perform poorly compared to non-URMs. A test and experience factors might give you both.

I don’t know which optics are worse however. Dropped academic results in the current approach or lopsided admissions scores in a test based approach that gives URM points.

The largest increase was to white kids. More than all other groups combined.
Pre-change white admits 86, most recent class 140 up by 54
Pre change black admits 7, most recent class 19, up by 12
Prechange hispanic admits16, most recent class 41, up by 25
Asian admits went down by 40 from 355 to 315

Do you have a breakdown of numbers of kids in each group from lower income homes? As long as we’re pulling in more kids from families that don’t have financial/educational advantages, what race the kids happen to be doesn’t really matter.

I care about seeing opportunities going to kids from less advantaged families.

I don't have the racial breakdown of disadvantaged kids but here is where I'm puilling the info from:

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028
It shows 16.36% disadvantaged (it used to be 2%).
I'm with you. If you want to discriminate based on wealth, that's fine. I think we all understand there is an inherent unearned advantage to wealth.
It would not be offensive to correct for that at least a bit.

As long as they use some sort of objective, standardized metric to assess foundational skills in the admissions process. SOL, Math Inventory, something. With rampant grade inflation, GPA is no longer a reliable certification of solid foundational skills. It is undoubtedly stressful for the TJ students who are failing their SOLs; those gaps should have been identified earlier.

I’d prefer not to see standardized tests added back to the process. There was a time that they were useful for identifying bright kids from families with fewer advantages, but that is unfortunately no longer true. The proliferation of test prep businesses has distorted the scores to the point where the tests become essentially of little to no worth to the TJ application process.

The new system is doing a good job of pulling in more kids from financially less advantaged families; let’s hope this trend continues and increases. The kids who need an opportunity like TJ are the kids from families who are not advantaged financially/educationally. Kids whose parents are well educated and financially comfortable will have no trouble doing well in this world. The kids whose parents didn’t go to college and have lower incomes are the ones for whom TJ can really make a difference.

Setting a minimum SOL pass level is not distortionary. It doesn't matter how many other students pass or how one passing score compares to another; it is just a question as to whether that one student has met minimum grade level proficiency. Determining that fact has large value; it signals if a student has gaps that need to be remediated. Admitting a student with significant gaps in grade level content is setting them up for a very challenging and stressful time at TJ.