TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And parent were willing to spend big bucks to give their kids a leg up in admissions:

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

that’s nice, dear

YouTube free SAT prep:

- free

FCPS SAT prep resources

- free

High school college admissions center SAT prep resources

- free

Public library SAT prep guides

- free

Etc.

That's why they changed to a test that didn't have free trying available in the hopes that kids would not be able to study for the test. They STILL couldn't get the racial profile they desired so they just got rid of the test and things got a lot easier. Until kids started failing.

It worked for a year until the test prep companies caught up. Class of 2022 was significantly more diverse and performed outstandingly well.

If by more diverse, you mean more white, then yes the class of 2022 was more diverse. The two groups that saw increased admissions were Hispanic (went from 8 to 23) and white (went from 87 to 111). These changes always seem to help the white kids the most.

Well, yes. You’re essentially admitting that if you use the same exam format year over year, it benefits Asian students.

That isn’t the flex that you think it is. Especially when so many have defended the exam that produced the above results tooth and nail now that it’s been hacked.

Yes. Any time you use an objective test that you can study for, the kids that study hard are going to do better than the kids that don't.

Yep - but sadly, these exams end up being little more than an opportunity for families of means to spend money to get their kids ahead through familiarity with the exam, rather than through superior content area knowledge.

And you can talk all you want about free prep opportunities and “just studying hard”, but if they were as effective as the boutique options, motivated families wouldn’t spend the extra money and would just use the free stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

You’re not arguing in good faith, so I shouldn’t dignify with a response, but I have concerns that the uninformed might take you seriously, so…

1) Your assertion about the 500 wealthiest families is simultaneously probably correct and completely irrelevant. The point is not that exam culture favors the wealthiest - it’s that it favors those with *enough* wealth to take advantage of its weaknesses.

And the population in Northern Virginia with the highest proportion of upper-middle class families is *absolutely* the South Asians, and they’re quite vocal and proud about it. And rightfully so! They came to this area to make their lives in the Dulles Tech Corridor and they deserve to be lauded for those accomplishments - but the expectation that the TJ admissions process should cater to their educational priorities is asinine.

2) Loudoun didn’t get about 70 spots. They got between 100-120 based on their proportion of 8th grade students in the catchment area. And those seats were approximately 90% Asian, the overwhelming majority of those were South Asian, and those numbers strongly paralleled the infamous “Curie List” students who indicated admission to both TJ and AOS/AET.

3) It’s completely false that no one tried to do anything about TJ admissions until it became majority-Asian. Do your homework (and don’t use ChatGPT like your kids do) and look up the moves that were attempted in the early and late 2000s, mostly led by the NAACP. TJ was about 65% white back in those days and there were plenty of conversations about opening access to TJ to families of lesser economic means.

I'm responding to a post that claims that loudon county indians are "by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia" and the reason this incorrect claim is made is because it the racists want to frame this issue as an income issue when it's about race.

They are, and it’s by about $20,000 per capita. This isn’t a topic that’s up for debate among serious people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

So their signature program was about $3000 a year over 2 years and it would get your kid into TJ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

If you don't want it, then don't do it. But just as some kids compete at sports, and other kids compete at music, some kids compete at academics.
The Math Olympiad really starts in 5th or 6th grade when kids take the AMC 8. Why is the violin or the tennis racket so much better for kids than the math olympiad?

NARRATIVES?!?!? So because people will point out the huge disparities in test scores, we shouldn't be using test scores? Because it's embarassing? GTFOH.
Asians aren't born better at academics they become that way.

Why are asians in NYC (the group with the highest or second highest poverty rate in NYC have the same sort of overrepresenation at stuyvesant in NYC? What advantages do they have over the wealthier blacks and whites in the city?

Why did Asians from low-income families struggle so much with the former TJ admissions process?

I don't know but I would guess that it might be that:

1. Low income asians in fairfax were competing with middle class asians with better educated parents.
2. There are not as many middle class asians that stay in the nyc and attend public schools so the low income asians crowd them out.
3. The low income asians in NYC getting into stuy are from confucian cultures or the indian subcontinentT the low income asians in fairfax are frequently from other parts of asia.
4. The holistic elements of the admissions process really discriminates against poor kids generally but especially against poor kids of an over-represented group. Summer STEM camps cost money, robotics cost money, math coaching for math competitions can cost a lot of money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

What do you mean decouple racial concerns and test prep concerns? I think a lot of test prep concerns arise from racism and the concerns that a lot of white people have that asians are taking spots that might otherwise go to their kids. Even the use of the term test prep to describe what happens at curie is pretty deceptive. Curie starts in early elementary, nobody is doing that to get into TJ. They have a 2 week module that costs $300 that goes over the test, everything else is educational enrichment.

Curie (and probably others) sell it as test prep. Their $6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

Many families do enrichment purely to increase their kids’ chances at TJ.

You are quoting PART of one sentence out of a 20 page document.

The entire sentence read:
"The Level 7/8 program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and
critical thinking. This program will prepare students not only to pass any test for admission into
specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in high school and
later in college.

And it is clear from the rest of the document and their website that they are not particularly focused on the TJ exam.

Right. I included the excerpt that was relevant. Curie pushed that multi-year program as the ultimate “test prep” option. They specifically mention the TJ admissions test.

You are the only person who is (weirdly) trying to narrowly define it.

Parents sign their kids up for all kinds of activities and enrichment just to get a leg up on TJ admissions.

Should we call these things “admissions boosters”?

Really where do they push it as the ultimate "test prep" option? I mean they seem to be going out of their way to say that this will not only prepare them for entrance exams but also for high school and college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

We shouldn't be incentivizing parents of 10-12 years old to streamline their kids' childhoods for any one activity, whether it test prep, travel sports, a musical instrument or whatever the activity it is. Even the kids who are phenominally great at a particular activity should have other activities and interests they are allowed to pursue. Tiger Woods should have been doing more then just golf. The Williams Sisters should have been doing more then just tennis. Chess prodigies, musical prodigies should have other activities that they are allowed to pursue.

This isn't just an academic issue but a life issue. We are driving kids into one sport and a travel sport before they even get to MS because that is how you get a kid onm the HS team or the elite travel team and get a D1 scholarship or make it to the olympics. We drive kids into practicing an instrument X hours of the day and competing because that is how you get into the best music schools. We drive kids to prepare for tests in ES because that is how they get into the elite ES/programs/MS/HS.

It used to be that we encouraged kids to be well rounded. Kids played 2 or 3 sports through HS and then specialized in one sport for college. Kids were in band and practiced their instrument but they played a sport or did other activities. Kids took enrichment classes but there wasn't pressure to take HS classes in 6th grade. Heck, Algebra in 8th grade was seen as advanced.

This area is more academically intense than many other parts of the Country but the pressure on MC and UMC families to have their kid specialize in a sport or instrument or whatever so that they are attractive for colleges and hopefully get scholarships has gotten out of control. For whatever reason, most families seem to buy into the travel sports/summer swim type things and focus on the academic tracks as being out of control, but the truth is, it is all out of control.

PP. We agree completely.

Of the things to overemphasize, I think overemphasizing education is probably better than overemphasizing travel sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

Your first sentence is manifestly incorrect and presumes that students from disadvantaged economic backgrounds are undeserving.

If they can't cut it then they are less deserving. It's an objective test. Get gud son

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:And parent were willing to spend big bucks to give their kids a leg up in admissions:

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

that’s nice, dear

YouTube free SAT prep:

- free

FCPS SAT prep resources

- free

High school college admissions center SAT prep resources

- free

Public library SAT prep guides

- free

Etc.

That's why they changed to a test that didn't have free trying available in the hopes that kids would not be able to study for the test. They STILL couldn't get the racial profile they desired so they just got rid of the test and things got a lot easier. Until kids started failing.

It worked for a year until the test prep companies caught up. Class of 2022 was significantly more diverse and performed outstandingly well.

If by more diverse, you mean more white, then yes the class of 2022 was more diverse. The two groups that saw increased admissions were Hispanic (went from 8 to 23) and white (went from 87 to 111). These changes always seem to help the white kids the most.

Well, yes. You’re essentially admitting that if you use the same exam format year over year, it benefits Asian students.

That isn’t the flex that you think it is. Especially when so many have defended the exam that produced the above results tooth and nail now that it’s been hacked.

Yes. Any time you use an objective test that you can study for, the kids that study hard are going to do better than the kids that don't.

Yep - but sadly, these exams end up being little more than an opportunity for families of means to spend money to get their kids ahead through familiarity with the exam, rather than through superior content area knowledge.

And you can talk all you want about free prep opportunities and “just studying hard”, but if they were as effective as the boutique options, motivated families wouldn’t spend the extra money and would just use the free stuff.

Nobody is studying the structure of the SHSAT or Quant Q for 6 years or even 2 years. The test prep part is about 2 weeks and cost an extra $300 at Curie.

Testing is still the best method we have of measuring cognitive ability. In fact its so good that we have an entire branch of psychology dedicated to using tests to measure cognitive ability. And the results are so reliable that peer reviewed research from harvard and brown has concluded that standardized tests like the SATs are the best predictors of college academic performance and that predictive ability is not affected by the student's income. In other words a poor kid with a 1500 does almost exactly the same as a rich kid with a 1500. if the SATs were really measuring wealth in some way, you would expect the poor kids to overperform their SAT scores but they don't and you would expect the rich kids to underperform their SAT scores, but they don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

You’re not arguing in good faith, so I shouldn’t dignify with a response, but I have concerns that the uninformed might take you seriously, so…

1) Your assertion about the 500 wealthiest families is simultaneously probably correct and completely irrelevant. The point is not that exam culture favors the wealthiest - it’s that it favors those with *enough* wealth to take advantage of its weaknesses.

And the population in Northern Virginia with the highest proportion of upper-middle class families is *absolutely* the South Asians, and they’re quite vocal and proud about it. And rightfully so! They came to this area to make their lives in the Dulles Tech Corridor and they deserve to be lauded for those accomplishments - but the expectation that the TJ admissions process should cater to their educational priorities is asinine.

2) Loudoun didn’t get about 70 spots. They got between 100-120 based on their proportion of 8th grade students in the catchment area. And those seats were approximately 90% Asian, the overwhelming majority of those were South Asian, and those numbers strongly paralleled the infamous “Curie List” students who indicated admission to both TJ and AOS/AET.

3) It’s completely false that no one tried to do anything about TJ admissions until it became majority-Asian. Do your homework (and don’t use ChatGPT like your kids do) and look up the moves that were attempted in the early and late 2000s, mostly led by the NAACP. TJ was about 65% white back in those days and there were plenty of conversations about opening access to TJ to families of lesser economic means.

I'm responding to a post that claims that loudon county indians are "by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia" and the reason this incorrect claim is made is because it the racists want to frame this issue as an income issue when it's about race.

They are, and it’s by about $20,000 per capita. This isn’t a topic that’s up for debate among serious people.

Once again, take the wealthiest 500 wealthiest people in fairfax and loudon combined and tell me how many indians are in that group?