FCPS paying for Critical Race Theory curriculum. To be implemented in a year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

Yes. But not by you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

Yes. But not by you.

Please read more carefully. How should those historical facts be taught?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

Not a woman. She was a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

Not a woman. She was a child.

You’re right. I apologize. But I would still like to hear from PP (or any of the “venerate Jefferson Forever” posters) how they think the facts of his behavior should be taught in schools. Because as far as I can tell they think they should be ignored, which is antithetical to a thorough education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

He wrote the Declaration of Independence. And he wrote a lot more, dear. Read some of it.

Please don’t call me dear, you don’t know me. I don’t dispute his writing. How do you want to deal with the other historical facts of his life which are just as historically valid?

Reread his writing, friend.

And this is where the veneration of Jefferson argument fails. A critical approach allows both the writing AND the historical facts of his personal behavior and his families subsequent efforts at a coverup. A veneration approach only allows uncritical praise. That is not an education, that is a religion or an indoctrination, neither of which belong in public school.

You didn't read anything that he wrote. He had an interesting life. And he was brilliant and knew very well where slavery lies in a moral and ethical world.

Understanding his importance isn't veneration. It's being an educated citizen.

I have read quite a lot of his writing. And it does suggest he knew how deeply immoral slavery was. And yet he allowed his children to be enslaved. He raped at least one woman. And his family tried for generations to cover that up. How do you think those facts should be taught? Or do you think those facts should be covered up. It’s a pretty simple question.

Not a woman. She was a child.

You’re right. I apologize. But I would still like to hear from PP (or any of the “venerate Jefferson Forever” posters) how they think the facts of his behavior should be taught in schools. Because as far as I can tell they think they should be ignored, which is antithetical to a thorough education.

They are pushing for the classic White Supremacist style of education to be taught in schools. Confuse the people into thinking White Supremacy is best for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

I don't really think they are ignored. We have an african american history museum. I'm not sure what is in that since everytime I go online I can't get tickets, but there could easily be a portion of that dedicated to our founding fathers who had slaves. No one is hiding anything. The internet and Monticello are filled with information on Jefferson. That said, his monument is still beautiful and to me still makes sense. What don't you understand that he thought this was out of his control and wanted to end enslavement from Britain first? I don't understand why this basic concept isn't understood. He put all men created equal because he believed it. But he still had inner conflicts like all people do.

Wilberforce who actually did advocate for slavery ending above everything else was criticized for not doing enough for poor laborers. It took his entire life to end slavery and that was pretty much all he did that was completely successful. The rest of his efforts were somewhat successful but needed others to take the reign. We have so many worthless people in America. Jefferson was not one of those people. He laid the foundation for all people created equal and he gave a huge start to this nation. No one is dismissing his faults. They just don't deserve the same place as the place of honor for him. You confuse honoring with someone as if you are making them god. You are honoring the specific actions of that person. Not the person in their entirety.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t dispute that he was foundational. However, being foundational doesn’t come with a free pass into perpetuity to be enshrined at taxpayers expense.

I don't quite understand this rationale. Either he was foundational or he wasn't. Who then does get a free pass into perpetuity to receive taxpayer dollars after death? Seems like this would be a first choice for a country to have a monument for. It's not like the US is the only country that has made a monument for their founders.

Oh that’s easy— no one. I believe that as we grow and evolve as a nation, we will be more honest about who we venerate and why. As we know better we we do better. I don’t think there’s anyone— black or white, man or woman— who is *entitled* to a taxpayer shrine. Jefferson is just one of the more obvious examples of why.

DP. Honestly, I think that as we grow and evolve, we can appreciate Jefferson and his wisdom and genius even more. He was incredible, an amazing awesome person. We should name more schools after him

Agreed. His accomplishments and his contributions to this country are remarkable. We should be doing more to commemorate him, really.

Why do you think that view isn’t more widely held?

Because very few people appreciate history. We have ridiculously short, internet-induced attention spans.

So, the historical fact of his enslaving his own children, raping women, and perpetuating a national disgrace, not to mention the efforts of parts of his family (the white parts) to conceal his behavior, should not be taught in your view? Or should be taught and then ignored? If you’re going to say this is about history the above facts are as historical as his drafting the Declaration of Independence.

I don't really think they are ignored. We have an african american history museum. I'm not sure what is in that since everytime I go online I can't get tickets, but there could easily be a portion of that dedicated to our founding fathers who had slaves. No one is hiding anything. The internet and Monticello are filled with information on Jefferson. That said, his monument is still beautiful and to me still makes sense. What don't you understand that he thought this was out of his control and wanted to end enslavement from Britain first? I don't understand why this basic concept isn't understood. He put all men created equal because he believed it. But he still had inner conflicts like all people do.

Wilberforce who actually did advocate for slavery ending above everything else was criticized for not doing enough for poor laborers. It took his entire life to end slavery and that was pretty much all he did that was completely successful. The rest of his efforts were somewhat successful but needed others to take the reign. We have so many worthless people in America. Jefferson was not one of those people. He laid the foundation for all people created equal and he gave a huge start to this nation. No one is dismissing his faults. They just don't deserve the same place as the place of honor for him. You confuse honoring with someone as if you are making them god. You are honoring the specific actions of that person. Not the person in their entirety.

So you would be comfortable with textbooks and discussions in civics and history class putting the facts of Jefferson’s personal behavior regarding slavery (including the enslavement of his children and the efforts of his family to hide it) side by side with his writing about slavery?

Because even if we set aside the question of ending slavery within the United States (which is a big “even if”) the choice to rape and the choice to enslave his children were fully, fully within his control.

[Anonymous]

Here are some thoughts Jefferson’s actual descendants have about his memorial and what role his enslavement of his family members should play in that:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/15/891290821/thomas-jefferson-descendant-reflects-on-his-ancestors-complicated-legacy

Surely his great-great-grandson has wrestled with the conflict of the stirring narrative vs. the behavior of the individual.