Woman charged with felony for having a stillbirth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

No the defense is that it was a miscarriage not a still born. The prosecution has not proved the fetus was 22 weeks. If the fetus is < 22 weeks it is a miscarriage.

There is no law in Ohio that establishes when a dead fetus - that the woman didn't intentionally kill - is a fetus or a still born.

Wrong. Ohio law says 22 weeks is a stillborn, 20 weeks is a miscarriage. Oddly they don’t define 20-22 weeks.

Is there a citation for this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

No the defense is that it was a miscarriage not a still born. The prosecution has not proved the fetus was 22 weeks. If the fetus is < 22 weeks it is a miscarriage.

There is no law in Ohio that establishes when a dead fetus - that the woman didn't intentionally kill - is a fetus or a still born.

Wrong. Ohio law says 22 weeks is a stillborn, 20 weeks is a miscarriage. Oddly they don’t define 20-22 weeks.

Is there a citation for this?

Read the fetal death certificate law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

The only difference between women who flush fetuses and don’t get charged with a crime and this woman is that her dead fetus was large enough to get lodged in the toilet, requiring the toilet to be dismantled to retrieve the fetus. Ohio law had better be incredibly specific about what you can flush. Had she miscarried this fetus 8 weeks earlier and successfully flushed it, there would be no crime. If Ohio doesn’t define exactly when it becomes a crime, she shouldn’t be convicted of anything.

Or, to be fair, that possibly there was a lot of tissue and other products flushed with the fetus that caused the blockage. Or that the plumbing was already possibly blocked byy someone or something else, and what she flushed was just enough to finish the blockage. (This can happen with normal-sized stool, too, if someone before you has partially blocked the pipes.)

The autopsy would give size, but given that you can clog a toilet just with sufficient toilet paper (and she was probably bleeding a lot), and that the placenta might have been passed and attempted to flush at the same time, we really can't assume size until an autopsy is available (if made public).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

No the defense is that it was a miscarriage not a still born. The prosecution has not proved the fetus was 22 weeks. If the fetus is < 22 weeks it is a miscarriage.

There is no law in Ohio that establishes when a dead fetus - that the woman didn't intentionally kill - is a fetus or a still born.

Wrong. Ohio law says 22 weeks is a stillborn, 20 weeks is a miscarriage. Oddly they don’t define 20-22 weeks.

Is there a citation for this?

Read the fetal death certificate law.

I do not see that a parent MUST apply for a fetal death certificate.

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-3705.20

The law talks about funeral directors and burial, cremation, other means of disposal... but not flushing.

Nor does it seem to state the penalties for failure to file.

And does it really seem reasonable that the state is attempting to codify what you do with your 20 or even 22 week fetus? You want to have to call a funeral director for you toilet fetus? Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

No the defense is that it was a miscarriage not a still born. The prosecution has not proved the fetus was 22 weeks. If the fetus is < 22 weeks it is a miscarriage.

There is no law in Ohio that establishes when a dead fetus - that the woman didn't intentionally kill - is a fetus or a still born.

Wrong. Ohio law says 22 weeks is a stillborn, 20 weeks is a miscarriage. Oddly they don’t define 20-22 weeks.

Is there a citation for this?

Read the fetal death certificate law.

I do not see that a parent MUST apply for a fetal death certificate.

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-3705.20

The law talks about funeral directors and burial, cremation, other means of disposal... but not flushing.

Nor does it seem to state the penalties for failure to file.

And does it really seem reasonable that the state is attempting to codify what you do with your 20 or even 22 week fetus? You want to have to call a funeral director for you toilet fetus? Really?

There are many unreasonable laws in Ohio related to fetuses. Let’s not pretend to be surprised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

And how do you know that it was the fetus that was "too large to flush," and not a flushing problem caused by a lot of tissues/toilet paper, placenta, etc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

And how do you know that it was the fetus that was "too large to flush," and not a flushing problem caused by a lot of tissues/toilet paper, placenta, etc?

DP. Either way, she should have been admitted to the hospital.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

And how do you know that it was the fetus that was "too large to flush," and not a flushing problem caused by a lot of tissues/toilet paper, placenta, etc?

(The person you’re replying to thinks that this woman should have been admitted to the hospital and treated by medical doctors instead of the forced birther laws effectively forcing the hospital to toss her out on her miscarrying butt. I tend to agree. She sought medical treatment. She was turned away, twice. She should not have been made to labor and deliver a dead or dying fetus all alone.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

And how do you know that it was the fetus that was "too large to flush," and not a flushing problem caused by a lot of tissues/toilet paper, placenta, etc?

I don’t. Those details don’t really matter to me since I think that in a sane and compassionate world/country/state the woman would have been admitted to the hospital— instead of being left on her own to deal with a traumatizing medical concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

And how do you know that it was the fetus that was "too large to flush," and not a flushing problem caused by a lot of tissues/toilet paper, placenta, etc?

(The person you’re replying to thinks that this woman should have been admitted to the hospital and treated by medical doctors instead of the forced birther laws effectively forcing the hospital to toss her out on her miscarrying butt. I tend to agree. She sought medical treatment. She was turned away, twice. She should not have been made to labor and deliver a dead or dying fetus all alone.)

Thank you PP. That is exactly how I feel. ( “I’m applauding…” PP that the “And how…” PP is replying to.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of speculation and theories in favor of the flusher, we don't the whole story, what is her defense? Is it bills, payment concerns, was she intoxicated, scared, ignorance? No one was there and that's why we have a trial to find out and ensure justice is served. She can also sue the hospital if needed.

Her defense is that it is not a crime to dispose of a fetus. Women flush fetuses all the time.

No the defense is that it was a miscarriage not a still born. The prosecution has not proved the fetus was 22 weeks. If the fetus is < 22 weeks it is a miscarriage.

There is no law in Ohio that establishes when a dead fetus - that the woman didn't intentionally kill - is a fetus or a still born.

Wrong. Ohio law says 22 weeks is a stillborn, 20 weeks is a miscarriage. Oddly they don’t define 20-22 weeks.

Is there a citation for this?

https://cim.legislature.ohio.gov/assets/organizations/commission-on-infant-mortality/events/commission-meeting-october-11-2017/files/ohio-department-of-health-stillborn-fact-sheet.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

Common sense says a fetus that falls out of your body into a toilet is not a still born. Also it’s under a bowl full of dark red blood. You c as not see what it looks like. Also large decal matter and toilet paper also clog a toilet.

So your common sense is quite ignorant.

[Anonymous]

What should she have done with it ? I would have probably thrown it in the trash ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t “don’t flush a corpse” common knowledge? I mean it’s not a goldfish it’s a human.

My “common knowledge “ doesn’t cover miscarriages or stillbirths outside of a hospital setting.
Since yours apparently does, please describe, in as detailed a way as you can manage, what exactly “common knowledge “ would have someone do in this situation.

I would probably call 911 and ask for help, and follow their instructions. But I get that after going through something traumatic and being turned away from from the hospital, the poor woman was in shock, and didn’t know what to do.

Really, common sense doesn’t tell you not to add a dead baby to the public water supply? It was apparently large enough that she tried plunging it and it didn’t go down so we’re not talking about just a large glob of cells…

Common sense also tells you that if the fetus is too large to flush, the woman should have been admitted to the hospital and cared for there.

I’m applauding this comment. This is the first use of the term “common sense” in this thread that strikes me as being actual common sense.

Common sense says a fetus that falls out of your body into a toilet is not a still born. Also it’s under a bowl full of dark red blood. You c as not see what it looks like. Also large decal matter and toilet paper also clog a toilet.

So your common sense is quite ignorant.

Actually, yours is. To use your wording, a fetus/ the contents of a uterus can “fall out of your body” at any stage of pregnancy.

Your next comment: “ You c as not see what it looks like.” Is garbled. Perhaps you could fix it if you actually want a response?

I’m not sure what you mean by “decal matter”. Perhaps you meant to type “fecal”? “Decals” don’t seem terribly relevant to this discussion.

My point is that this woman should have been admitted to the hospital for treatment.


PP, your version of “common sense” combined here with ample “ignorance “ of your own, suggests that despite the bellicosity of your comment, you must be pretty blissful— if that old saying holds true.