Does the Lee in W & L ruin it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is far superior to W&L. Not even close

True story, grad of a T3 ug and T2 grad school...

Never heard of W&M or W&L until I moved to the DC area around age 40, dead serious

Nice schools though

That’s weird. W&L is a pretty regional school. But T-X people who care enough to T2 vs T3 should know enough about education to know W&M, if only because is so old and it’s foundation isn’t such a key piece of American higher education. Did they tell you colleges outside of Ivy’s, or nah?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

Good for them. It’s sounds like they put real thought into the process. I’m not religious. But I admire any religion that has prayerful dialogue and seeks consensus on hard topics.

I’m from the South. And let’s be clear. Lee lead an insurrection that killed more Americans than any other war to keep people enslaved in order to maintain the cultural heritage the South is so proud of. This is a monstrous thing. He should not be created. And the crap about venerating our heritage. Well, the heritage they are so proud of was a moral disaster in 1800. How people were still defending it in 1980 was baffling to me when I was an 8 year old yankee transplant called a yankee transplant. And it’s more baffling after watch the second American Insurrection, which most Southern senators just voted to find NBD.

Washington is a towering figure in our history. But he also owned slaves, and there were significant moral objections to slavery when he was alive. His failure to free his slaves while alive is a problem we should acknowledge. Not to cancel him. But because it is deeply and personally painful to so many of our citizens that we refuse to.

And all our complete inability to admit our country, like all countries, has an imperfect past. And being powerful doesn’t make that less so. I won’t speak for Black people. But I haven’t heard serious people suggest we knock down the Washington Monument and pretend he never existed. But I can see how this country’s failure to say— great guy for staying the country, big asterisks on owning slaves is a problem. I find it problematic, and I’m not Black.

If we don’t start to reckon with our country’s past and move forward, the 3rd American Insurrection might work.

And that isn’t cancel culture. It’s tellin it like it is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

Good for them. It’s sounds like they put real thought into the process. I’m not religious. But I admire any religion that has prayerful dialogue and seeks consensus on hard topics.

I’m from the South. And let’s be clear. Lee lead an insurrection that killed more Americans than any other war to keep people enslaved in order to maintain the cultural heritage the South is so proud of. This is a monstrous thing. He should not be created. And the crap about venerating our heritage. Well, the heritage they are so proud of was a moral disaster in 1800. How people were still defending it in 1980 was baffling to me when I was an 8 year old yankee transplant called a yankee transplant. And it’s more baffling after watch the second American Insurrection, which most Southern senators just voted to find NBD.

Washington is a towering figure in our history. But he also owned slaves, and there were significant moral objections to slavery when he was alive. His failure to free his slaves while alive is a problem we should acknowledge. Not to cancel him. But because it is deeply and personally painful to so many of our citizens that we refuse to.

And all our complete inability to admit our country, like all countries, has an imperfect past. And being powerful doesn’t make that less so. I won’t speak for Black people. But I haven’t heard serious people suggest we knock down the Washington Monument and pretend he never existed. But I can see how this country’s failure to say— great guy for staying the country, big asterisks on owning slaves is a problem. I find it problematic, and I’m not Black.

If we don’t start to reckon with our country’s past and move forward, the 3rd American Insurrection might work.

And that isn’t cancel culture. It’s tellin it like it is

Washington could not free the dower slaves at Mount Vernon, which were over half of the total. They belonged legally to his wife's heirs. He made provisions to free his slaves upon the death of his wife or sooner if she freed them. It was his hope, expressed in his will, that the dower slaves would be freed by his wife's heirs at the same time, because the dower slaves had married and had family ties to Washington's slaves. (Washington recognized slave marriages even though Virginia law did not.) He did not want them to be separated. Martha Washington freed Washington's slaves about a year after his death, but the dower slaves were not freed by her relatives. As a result, the families were divided.

Washington worked to build up an estate that would support the elderly freed slaves for the rest of their life and also the young freed slaves until the age of 25.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is far superior to W&L. Not even close

True story, grad of a T3 ug and T2 grad school...

Never heard of W&M or W&L until I moved to the DC area around age 40, dead serious

Nice schools though

It seems odd that you would share this personal anecdote of ignorance as if it was a proof point of anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh who cares. Most great architecture in history was built with slave labor of some sort. Should we tear it all down. We’ve all lost our minds. Focus on treating people in your real life fairly and kindly instead of on divisive woke-ism.

Well, many people do care. It’s not that the Lee in the name. It’s the Grand Old South atmosphere that refuses to acknowledge they lost the War of Northern Aggression. The school is proud of its heritage, and Lee’s presidency and the gravesite and make no effort to put in context. Which is fine. It’s private. It’s a free country. Spend your money and send your kid there. But many people are not okay with the harkening back to the confederacy aspects of the school and take real issue with that southern white mentality. It’s says something about the kid who chooses to attend. You’re right. It’s a selective school. I’m sure every kid there had other options. They chose W&L, which is so frat boy southern.

People are judged by the choices they make and the college they attend. If so many kids weren’t chasing that, why would this Board exist? And most W&L grads had choices. They made theirs. Liberty grads made theirs. Harvard grads made theirs. Smith grads made theirs. Etc And every grad school and future employer will use that as a proxy. It might not be fair. But, I encourage my kid to make theirs and attend a college they feel proud of. You should to. If it’s W&L, I’m sure you have your reasons and you don’t need to defend them. Unless, you think you do?

I think you might be a bit of a simpleton. Employers and graduate schools etc absolutely do NOT think in this way. At all.

Are you trying to convince me. Or yourself? Because if what you are saying is that no grad school or employer ever looked at the college you attended and made assumptions based on that, you’re the simpleton. Of course they do. It’s why people chase Ivy’s. But only the good ones, because Cornell. Alt right employers judge Oberlin grads and alt left ones judge Liberty and there are shades in between.

If you think no one judges W&L, multiple people on this thread have indicated otherwise.

Oh, I realize insecure stay at home mommies are judgmental. That’s practically in their job description. But to the degree an employer or grad school is judgmental it’s limited to the perceived academic rigor of a school and/or its programs. Not related to whether or not a school is fratty, southern, hippyish, crunchy or other such intangibles. I mean, we got an earful during the Kavanaugh hearings about how fratty Yale is but its graduates still do just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh who cares. Most great architecture in history was built with slave labor of some sort. Should we tear it all down. We’ve all lost our minds. Focus on treating people in your real life fairly and kindly instead of on divisive woke-ism.

Well, many people do care. It’s not that the Lee in the name. It’s the Grand Old South atmosphere that refuses to acknowledge they lost the War of Northern Aggression. The school is proud of its heritage, and Lee’s presidency and the gravesite and make no effort to put in context. Which is fine. It’s private. It’s a free country. Spend your money and send your kid there. But many people are not okay with the harkening back to the confederacy aspects of the school and take real issue with that southern white mentality. It’s says something about the kid who chooses to attend. You’re right. It’s a selective school. I’m sure every kid there had other options. They chose W&L, which is so frat boy southern.

People are judged by the choices they make and the college they attend. If so many kids weren’t chasing that, why would this Board exist? And most W&L grads had choices. They made theirs. Liberty grads made theirs. Harvard grads made theirs. Smith grads made theirs. Etc And every grad school and future employer will use that as a proxy. It might not be fair. But, I encourage my kid to make theirs and attend a college they feel proud of. You should to. If it’s W&L, I’m sure you have your reasons and you don’t need to defend them. Unless, you think you do?

The school is dealing with its heritage and continues to make changes (albeit late). Removing Lee’s name is even on the table. You don’t know that, which is understandable, but it doesn’t stop you from acting like an expert. That’s DCUM though.

Second paragraph is laughably stupid. W&L grads are very successful. The school ranks very highly by measures that attempt to capture value addition as demonstrable by income. The Economist had the school at number one. According to your theory they should be ranked near the bottom.

No I just disagree with the economists rankings. I think colleges are where our kids take their first steps as adults and make independent decisions that will shape the rest of their lives. And thus what I judge to be much more important than ROI, and in fact priceless, is intellectual growth and growth as a human being who makes good decisions and has good values. And for that, as well as their overall happiness, their peers matter. See, you can tell me the value of a W & L education. And I can tell you I see a net negative ROI. Strong sell.

And BTW, my kids attend one of the SLACs you pop off popular assumptions about, and the popular assumptions are pretty much on target. Derisive and nasty phrasing. But not fundamentally wrong. And I’m fine with that. Because I find it priceless.

If you didn’t know there’s some truth there, it would get under your skin. But there is. So it does.

I can tell you people with any sense don’t judge 50 year old by what their college in 2021, but they look at their life. So if it’s you’re alma mater, tell them you are restricting donations until they deal with the name and move on. 1985 and 2021 are not the same thing. Now, if you’re kid is currently there, it tells me something about you and your parenting. And it isn’t that flattering.

But rather than shrug and say what do I care about what some keyboard warrior says about me and moving on, you’re going to go full Trump keep swinging. Which might be musing if it hadn’t good so old the last few years. I hire people. That’s my opinion of 2021 grads. So someone thinks it.

You keep swinging. I’m out. It’s late. And I just don’t care about W&L enough to do this any more.

Oh, and the thing about raping people. It is very serious. And many colleges need to take it much more seriously than they do. It isn’t just some man’s reputation being destroyed, which devalues the long term ROI, which is the huge issue for you with rape culture. And he said it because he attended a W&L peer school, very strong on the cross admits list, then and now. And he was horrified. He’s seen the women whose lives were shattered by that culture and how they were treated and does not want our son or daughter anywhere near it. My kid passed because she has common sense.

Ok, people, the thread is over. PP DISAGREES with a ranking. And her kid’s fear of being raped is the decisive analysis!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh who cares. Most great architecture in history was built with slave labor of some sort. Should we tear it all down. We’ve all lost our minds. Focus on treating people in your real life fairly and kindly instead of on divisive woke-ism.

Well, many people do care. It’s not that the Lee in the name. It’s the Grand Old South atmosphere that refuses to acknowledge they lost the War of Northern Aggression. The school is proud of its heritage, and Lee’s presidency and the gravesite and make no effort to put in context. Which is fine. It’s private. It’s a free country. Spend your money and send your kid there. But many people are not okay with the harkening back to the confederacy aspects of the school and take real issue with that southern white mentality. It’s says something about the kid who chooses to attend. You’re right. It’s a selective school. I’m sure every kid there had other options. They chose W&L, which is so frat boy southern.

People are judged by the choices they make and the college they attend. If so many kids weren’t chasing that, why would this Board exist? And most W&L grads had choices. They made theirs. Liberty grads made theirs. Harvard grads made theirs. Smith grads made theirs. Etc And every grad school and future employer will use that as a proxy. It might not be fair. But, I encourage my kid to make theirs and attend a college they feel proud of. You should to. If it’s W&L, I’m sure you have your reasons and you don’t need to defend them. Unless, you think you do?

I think you might be a bit of a simpleton. Employers and graduate schools etc absolutely do NOT think in this way. At all.

Are you trying to convince me. Or yourself? Because if what you are saying is that no grad school or employer ever looked at the college you attended and made assumptions based on that, you’re the simpleton. Of course they do. It’s why people chase Ivy’s. But only the good ones, because Cornell. Alt right employers judge Oberlin grads and alt left ones judge Liberty and there are shades in between.

If you think no one judges W&L, multiple people on this thread have indicated otherwise.

Oh, I realize insecure stay at home mommies are judgmental. That’s practically in their job description. But to the degree an employer or grad school is judgmental it’s limited to the perceived academic rigor of a school and/or its programs. Not related to whether or not a school is fratty, southern, hippyish, crunchy or other such intangibles. I mean, we got an earful during the Kavanaugh hearings about how fratty Yale is but its graduates still do just fine.

Please. I am an employer (actually we run several businesses). I never evaluate hires based on dissecting the name of their college! I look for people with the appropriate skills, work ethic, etc . . . I’m definitely not evaluating candidates based on perceived woke-ism. Anyway, my neighborhood is full of the wokest woke, yard signs everywhere. Of course, why did they move to the neighborhood? Because heaven forbid larla actually attend school with black or brown children. Such divisive hypocrisy. You woke loons need to make sure you are treating the people in your daily life well - try being kind to the Whole Foods cashier- before getting on your smug little soap box and requiring that pretty much everything be renamed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have visited several times and it is gorgeous but has such an Old South feel you’d think it was in a state like Alabama. Last time I was there it still felt extremely white. The students who like this have a great experience and feel like they’re getting a great education. It is an acquired taste in that the things to do are very limited to dressy, drinky Greek life.

I know this was meant as an insult, as snobby DMVers love to use random Southern states as stand-ins for "uneducated" and "closed-minded." But the Honors College at the University of Alabama actually has quite a bit in common with W&L. Both are filled with brilliant, highly competitive students, but ones who desire a fun, vibrant college experience and an active social life on a campus that isn't steeped in woke SJW culture. My kid took a hard look at both schools, and I'd have been happy for him to attend either one, but the larger student body, chicks, and SEC football game day atmosphere at Alabama — not to mention the nearly-full-ride scholarship he was awarded — won him over. But they're both incredible places to get an education and have a blast doing it. Roll Tide and Go Generals!

W&L grad (and Johnson scholarship student) here. It's incredibly gross that an adult in 2021 would write "chicks." Guess that makes "steeped in woke SJW culture." As a business owner, I have news for PP -- lots of my peers (business owners and company presidents) are more "woke" than me. We actually consider young women to be human beings and potential team members, partners or customers and not "chicks" whose function is to serve as an attraction for our kid at college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

Good for them. It’s sounds like they put real thought into the process. I’m not religious. But I admire any religion that has prayerful dialogue and seeks consensus on hard topics.

I’m from the South. And let’s be clear. Lee lead an insurrection that killed more Americans than any other war to keep people enslaved in order to maintain the cultural heritage the South is so proud of. This is a monstrous thing. He should not be created. And the crap about venerating our heritage. Well, the heritage they are so proud of was a moral disaster in 1800. How people were still defending it in 1980 was baffling to me when I was an 8 year old yankee transplant called a yankee transplant. And it’s more baffling after watch the second American Insurrection, which most Southern senators just voted to find NBD.

Washington is a towering figure in our history. But he also owned slaves, and there were significant moral objections to slavery when he was alive. His failure to free his slaves while alive is a problem we should acknowledge. Not to cancel him. But because it is deeply and personally painful to so many of our citizens that we refuse to.

And all our complete inability to admit our country, like all countries, has an imperfect past. And being powerful doesn’t make that less so. I won’t speak for Black people. But I haven’t heard serious people suggest we knock down the Washington Monument and pretend he never existed. But I can see how this country’s failure to say— great guy for staying the country, big asterisks on owning slaves is a problem. I find it problematic, and I’m not Black.

If we don’t start to reckon with our country’s past and move forward, the 3rd American Insurrection might work.

And that isn’t cancel culture. It’s tellin it like it is

Washington could not free the dower slaves at Mount Vernon, which were over half of the total. They belonged legally to his wife's heirs. He made provisions to free his slaves upon the death of his wife or sooner if she freed them. It was his hope, expressed in his will, that the dower slaves would be freed by his wife's heirs at the same time, because the dower slaves had married and had family ties to Washington's slaves. (Washington recognized slave marriages even though Virginia law did not.) He did not want them to be separated. Martha Washington freed Washington's slaves about a year after his death, but the dower slaves were not freed by her relatives. As a result, the families were divided.

Washington worked to build up an estate that would support the elderly freed slaves for the rest of their life and also the young freed slaves until the age of 25.

What about Jefferson, while we're at it?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

Good for them. It’s sounds like they put real thought into the process. I’m not religious. But I admire any religion that has prayerful dialogue and seeks consensus on hard topics.

I’m from the South. And let’s be clear. Lee lead an insurrection that killed more Americans than any other war to keep people enslaved in order to maintain the cultural heritage the South is so proud of. This is a monstrous thing. He should not be created. And the crap about venerating our heritage. Well, the heritage they are so proud of was a moral disaster in 1800. How people were still defending it in 1980 was baffling to me when I was an 8 year old yankee transplant called a yankee transplant. And it’s more baffling after watch the second American Insurrection, which most Southern senators just voted to find NBD.

Washington is a towering figure in our history. But he also owned slaves, and there were significant moral objections to slavery when he was alive. His failure to free his slaves while alive is a problem we should acknowledge. Not to cancel him. But because it is deeply and personally painful to so many of our citizens that we refuse to.

And all our complete inability to admit our country, like all countries, has an imperfect past. And being powerful doesn’t make that less so. I won’t speak for Black people. But I haven’t heard serious people suggest we knock down the Washington Monument and pretend he never existed. But I can see how this country’s failure to say— great guy for staying the country, big asterisks on owning slaves is a problem. I find it problematic, and I’m not Black.

If we don’t start to reckon with our country’s past and move forward, the 3rd American Insurrection might work.

And that isn’t cancel culture. It’s tellin it like it is

Washington could not free the dower slaves at Mount Vernon, which were over half of the total. They belonged legally to his wife's heirs. He made provisions to free his slaves upon the death of his wife or sooner if she freed them. It was his hope, expressed in his will, that the dower slaves would be freed by his wife's heirs at the same time, because the dower slaves had married and had family ties to Washington's slaves. (Washington recognized slave marriages even though Virginia law did not.) He did not want them to be separated. Martha Washington freed Washington's slaves about a year after his death, but the dower slaves were not freed by her relatives. As a result, the families were divided.

Washington worked to build up an estate that would support the elderly freed slaves for the rest of their life and also the young freed slaves until the age of 25.

What about Jefferson, while we're at it?!

Jefferson only ever freed 10 members of the Hemmings family. He was also deeply in debt, which probably would have restricted his options if he had wanted to free his slaves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you're at it, better change your names too if your last names are Washington or Lee.

And change "Washington Football Team" to "Football Team".

It’s already here — Christ Church already removed the Washington memorial from the church at the same time they did the Lee memorial. They were both members, so it wasn’t just a random plaque.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/historic-alexandria-church-decides-to-remove-plaques-honoring-washington-lee/2017/10/28/97cb4cbc-bc1b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html

They did it because 1) services were already full of people who just wanted selfies in those boxes and 2) they would have gotten enormous backlash if the just removed Lee, instead they removed everyone. The church is a vibrant active church and those two boxes were more distractions than anything. If people want to see the history, there are plenty of tours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:W&M is far superior to W&L. Not even close

W&M gave an emeritus faculty position to the head of the Generals Redoubters. He’s on their campus in their business school regularly. He’s not a W&M alum. He’s a W&L alum. And W&L hasn’t given him anything since he graduated.

Far superior? Not likely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have visited several times and it is gorgeous but has such an Old South feel you’d think it was in a state like Alabama. Last time I was there it still felt extremely white. The students who like this have a great experience and feel like they’re getting a great education. It is an acquired taste in that the things to do are very limited to dressy, drinky Greek life.

I know this was meant as an insult, as snobby DMVers love to use random Southern states as stand-ins for "uneducated" and "closed-minded." But the Honors College at the University of Alabama actually has quite a bit in common with W&L. Both are filled with brilliant, highly competitive students, but ones who desire a fun, vibrant college experience and an active social life on a campus that isn't steeped in woke SJW culture. My kid took a hard look at both schools, and I'd have been happy for him to attend either one, but the larger student body, chicks, and SEC football game day atmosphere at Alabama — not to mention the nearly-full-ride scholarship he was awarded — won him over. But they're both incredible places to get an education and have a blast doing it. Roll Tide and Go Generals!

W&L grad (and Johnson scholarship student) here. It's incredibly gross that an adult in 2021 would write "chicks." Guess that makes "steeped in woke SJW culture." As a business owner, I have news for PP -- lots of my peers (business owners and company presidents) are more "woke" than me. We actually consider young women to be human beings and potential team members, partners or customers and not "chicks" whose function is to serve as an attraction for our kid at college.

Wish I could meet you. (Female W&L Johnson scholar grad here). I hear much more vitriol and sexism out here trying to work than I ever did at W&L. It does attract sexist attention in job interviews from sexists. I’ve been told “my husband wouldn’t want his lady working” in job interviews. I think they did me a favor by not hiring me.

I work for myself and run my own company too. It’s small but my skills from W&L serve me best as a business owner.

[Anonymous]

Some of these posters probably harass women in job interviews who don’t go to W&L, too.