Do prayers really work and if they do is it fair?

[Anonymous]

tool. not took.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I actually do know exactly which verses are applicable here (namely Mark 10:17-31 and hello most of the Bible) but no, I haven’t been impressed with the amount of knowledge on this forum about the Bible. It’s basically a bunch of ignoramuses pontificating on something they hardly know. Very few people seem to know anything about the Bible other than as you say, there are rules on what foods to eat (gasp! Rules about eating in a time where there were all kinds of diseases associated with unsanitary conditions!!) and some random “impossible” thing they saw on some atheist reddit post like there was a talking donkey, which wasn’t even the most interesting part of that story.

Is it really surprising that people point out the parts of the book they find objectionable, contradictory, offensive, or impossible?

The problem many people have is with biblical literalists. You'll see very little argument to people who view it as allegory written by men, even if they choose to make it an important part of their life.

If you accept the premise of a creator who is omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., why would the “impossible” parts bother you at all? The entire premise is impossible without faith.

Secondly I have no problem discussing contradictions in the Bible, but when your knowledge and understanding are so superficial, you really don’t have anything of interest to say. Yes, guys, we know some innocent babies get cancer and that is super terrible, but it is really not a slam dunk as far as seeing religion as illegitimate. The fallout of free will and living in the natural world is suffering. The Bible is actually not about avoiding suffering or having the easiest life possible.

Don’t try to point out issues about something that you didn’t read all the way through without at least googling or investigating yourself. So basic!

Because literalists try to impose their will on the rest of us, through legal or societal means. You know this.

For the record I have had a great deal of biblical instruction. By "superficial" you mean "You don't compartmentalize the problem areas so that faith is easy, therefore I do not want to hear from you".

And if you think I "really don’t have anything of interest to say", well, then why did you respond?

We both know the answer to that one.

You are certainly launching into your own thing so good luck with that. I haven’t told you to have faith or “compartmentalize” so I’m not sure who or what you’re arguing about. This isn’t really about being literal with the text, but having a working understanding.

If you have knowledge, have a knowledgeable discussion about the text. If you don’t, don’t. I don’t see you showing off any deep thinking.

What do you think the Bible says about being rich?

The first one that comes to mind is the quote about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe that is directly from Jesus.

So you are so knowledgeable about the Bible you even know the top quote you are responding to!

Wow, color me impressed!

Assuming that is sarcasm -- a question was asked and earnestly answered. I am asking seriously: what answer would have satisfied you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But but but.. if God has a plan and everything is predestined then asking for something is either part of the plan or works against he plan and changes have to be made. Because when one person asks for something and it is granted, it is most likely taken away from another person.

Example - exams, jobs, lottery..

Wow genius you are the first one to ever think of that! I guess we can all stop talking about religion and go home!

I am not the PP, but if it is so frequently discussed, how is it rationalized?

This is kind of a trick to keep you in the loop. On one hand you need to be faithful and do as expected, but on the other hand everything is predestined so no matter what you do you end up in the same place. So in theory if you are good person or bad person it is predesigned, if you do god or do bad it is not going to change anything because whatever you are doing has been decided before you were born.

This is a seriously conflicted conundrum. On one hand you got a free will and can influence your destination, on the other
it has been all decided.

Think of Judas.. on one hand he had a choice.. but on the other hand he was always the took in God's hand he has been chosen to do what he did. So at the end this is quite confusing proposition. Free will or not free will?
What is it at the end? And if a person is chosen to do bad deeds for the sake of humanity's improvement then
is that person eternally damned or is the person rewarded. Judas ended up pretty badly here on Earth.

Your logic makes no sense here. Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice. That doesn’t mean that Jesus actively influenced his choice because the trajectory of events had to be a certain way.

God knows what you will do in the end. What matters is that you don’t. It’s really not that complicated nor a conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I actually do know exactly which verses are applicable here (namely Mark 10:17-31 and hello most of the Bible) but no, I haven’t been impressed with the amount of knowledge on this forum about the Bible. It’s basically a bunch of ignoramuses pontificating on something they hardly know. Very few people seem to know anything about the Bible other than as you say, there are rules on what foods to eat (gasp! Rules about eating in a time where there were all kinds of diseases associated with unsanitary conditions!!) and some random “impossible” thing they saw on some atheist reddit post like there was a talking donkey, which wasn’t even the most interesting part of that story.

Is it really surprising that people point out the parts of the book they find objectionable, contradictory, offensive, or impossible?

The problem many people have is with biblical literalists. You'll see very little argument to people who view it as allegory written by men, even if they choose to make it an important part of their life.

If you accept the premise of a creator who is omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., why would the “impossible” parts bother you at all? The entire premise is impossible without faith.

Secondly I have no problem discussing contradictions in the Bible, but when your knowledge and understanding are so superficial, you really don’t have anything of interest to say. Yes, guys, we know some innocent babies get cancer and that is super terrible, but it is really not a slam dunk as far as seeing religion as illegitimate. The fallout of free will and living in the natural world is suffering. The Bible is actually not about avoiding suffering or having the easiest life possible.

Don’t try to point out issues about something that you didn’t read all the way through without at least googling or investigating yourself. So basic!

Because literalists try to impose their will on the rest of us, through legal or societal means. You know this.

For the record I have had a great deal of biblical instruction. By "superficial" you mean "You don't compartmentalize the problem areas so that faith is easy, therefore I do not want to hear from you".

And if you think I "really don’t have anything of interest to say", well, then why did you respond?

We both know the answer to that one.

You are certainly launching into your own thing so good luck with that. I haven’t told you to have faith or “compartmentalize” so I’m not sure who or what you’re arguing about. This isn’t really about being literal with the text, but having a working understanding.

If you have knowledge, have a knowledgeable discussion about the text. If you don’t, don’t. I don’t see you showing off any deep thinking.

What do you think the Bible says about being rich?

The first one that comes to mind is the quote about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe that is directly from Jesus.

So you are so knowledgeable about the Bible you even know the top quote you are responding to!

Wow, color me impressed!

Assuming that is sarcasm -- a question was asked and earnestly answered. I am asking seriously: what answer would have satisfied you?

Umm perhaps something other than what I originally told you, something that reflected your supposed deep knowledge and study? Again, you don’t have to go super deep here, it’s a big Bible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please get yourself a more sophisticated theology than you are expressing here.

God isn't magic and you suffer from a lack of imagination.

However the problem is that Jesus asks you to be like a child. Jesus is not interesting in "more sophisticated theology"
because this is where the problems begin. If you ask me the problem is with the sophisticated theology.
When Jesus came to this Earth the Laws of the God and the theology was so evolved that it was in the way of pure connection to God. Jesus came and he actually flipped it and started over. Then amazingly enough the more sophisticated theology again took over his teaching and made everything so sophisticated and so convoluted and so complicated
then the simple act of connecting to God - a prayer can not be discussed between random people without
following some rules and dogmas of catechism and sophistication.

Is a prayer a meditation to improve self, is a prayer search for truth, is a prayer request for gain, is a prayer a worship of divine superpower and submission to it's grandeur, one without want or need but pure love?

You tell me? That is all I want to know. I think most people who are religious are so because of the upbringing, and as such they have imposed ways of prayers and understanding of prayer. Maybe there is more to it? Who is to say?
Not me, I just asked question. Maybe God wants to be loved through prayer and not asked as he already knows what we need but it seems that most people are afraid to risk trusting God and need to tell him what they need because they think that God is a little minded being not superior being who needs to be told and begged. So my question is again:
can people pray to worship god and through love but not to ask for anything. This is pretty big trust and love right there.
Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But but but.. if God has a plan and everything is predestined then asking for something is either part of the plan or works against he plan and changes have to be made. Because when one person asks for something and it is granted, it is most likely taken away from another person.

Example - exams, jobs, lottery..

Wow genius you are the first one to ever think of that! I guess we can all stop talking about religion and go home!

I am not the PP, but if it is so frequently discussed, how is it rationalized?

This is kind of a trick to keep you in the loop. On one hand you need to be faithful and do as expected, but on the other hand everything is predestined so no matter what you do you end up in the same place. So in theory if you are good person or bad person it is predesigned, if you do god or do bad it is not going to change anything because whatever you are doing has been decided before you were born.

This is a seriously conflicted conundrum. On one hand you got a free will and can influence your destination, on the other
it has been all decided.

Think of Judas.. on one hand he had a choice.. but on the other hand he was always the took in God's hand he has been chosen to do what he did. So at the end this is quite confusing proposition. Free will or not free will?
What is it at the end? And if a person is chosen to do bad deeds for the sake of humanity's improvement then
is that person eternally damned or is the person rewarded. Judas ended up pretty badly here on Earth.

Your logic makes no sense here. Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice. That doesn’t mean that Jesus actively influenced his choice because the trajectory of events had to be a certain way.

God knows what you will do in the end. What matters is that you don’t. It’s really not that complicated nor a conspiracy.

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

You can say this again!

You really have not to see the irony of it.

[Anonymous]

but but but.. why in heaven Jesus would let Judas do what he did? Indeed. Jesus, miracle maker, he could easily
save the dude. He did not. For grater good. You need to explain that to me slowly.
The thing is that theology has an answer for everything but not everything holds the logic and theology
has answer for lack of logic too - faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please get yourself a more sophisticated theology than you are expressing here.

God isn't magic and you suffer from a lack of imagination.

However the problem is that Jesus asks you to be like a child. Jesus is not interesting in "more sophisticated theology"
because this is where the problems begin. If you ask me the problem is with the sophisticated theology.
When Jesus came to this Earth the Laws of the God and the theology was so evolved that it was in the way of pure connection to God. Jesus came and he actually flipped it and started over. Then amazingly enough the more sophisticated theology again took over his teaching and made everything so sophisticated and so convoluted and so complicated
then the simple act of connecting to God - a prayer can not be discussed between random people without
following some rules and dogmas of catechism and sophistication.

Is a prayer a meditation to improve self, is a prayer search for truth, is a prayer request for gain, is a prayer a worship of divine superpower and submission to it's grandeur, one without want or need but pure love?

You tell me? That is all I want to know. I think most people who are religious are so because of the upbringing, and as such they have imposed ways of prayers and understanding of prayer. Maybe there is more to it? Who is to say?
Not me, I just asked question. Maybe God wants to be loved through prayer and not asked as he already knows what we need but it seems that most people are afraid to risk trusting God and need to tell him what they need because they think that God is a little minded being not superior being who needs to be told and begged. So my question is again:
can people pray to worship god and through love but not to ask for anything. This is pretty big trust and love right there.
Right?

Your post is not well written but your apparent ultimate point, that you should pray only for “love” is misguided.

Prayer is your communication with God and it is perfectly legitimate to ask for help, to ask for guidance, to ask for something you feel that you need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I actually do know exactly which verses are applicable here (namely Mark 10:17-31 and hello most of the Bible) but no, I haven’t been impressed with the amount of knowledge on this forum about the Bible. It’s basically a bunch of ignoramuses pontificating on something they hardly know. Very few people seem to know anything about the Bible other than as you say, there are rules on what foods to eat (gasp! Rules about eating in a time where there were all kinds of diseases associated with unsanitary conditions!!) and some random “impossible” thing they saw on some atheist reddit post like there was a talking donkey, which wasn’t even the most interesting part of that story.

Is it really surprising that people point out the parts of the book they find objectionable, contradictory, offensive, or impossible?

The problem many people have is with biblical literalists. You'll see very little argument to people who view it as allegory written by men, even if they choose to make it an important part of their life.

If you accept the premise of a creator who is omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., why would the “impossible” parts bother you at all? The entire premise is impossible without faith.

Secondly I have no problem discussing contradictions in the Bible, but when your knowledge and understanding are so superficial, you really don’t have anything of interest to say. Yes, guys, we know some innocent babies get cancer and that is super terrible, but it is really not a slam dunk as far as seeing religion as illegitimate. The fallout of free will and living in the natural world is suffering. The Bible is actually not about avoiding suffering or having the easiest life possible.

Don’t try to point out issues about something that you didn’t read all the way through without at least googling or investigating yourself. So basic!

Because literalists try to impose their will on the rest of us, through legal or societal means. You know this.

For the record I have had a great deal of biblical instruction. By "superficial" you mean "You don't compartmentalize the problem areas so that faith is easy, therefore I do not want to hear from you".

And if you think I "really don’t have anything of interest to say", well, then why did you respond?

We both know the answer to that one.

You are certainly launching into your own thing so good luck with that. I haven’t told you to have faith or “compartmentalize” so I’m not sure who or what you’re arguing about. This isn’t really about being literal with the text, but having a working understanding.

If you have knowledge, have a knowledgeable discussion about the text. If you don’t, don’t. I don’t see you showing off any deep thinking.

What do you think the Bible says about being rich?

The first one that comes to mind is the quote about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe that is directly from Jesus.

So you are so knowledgeable about the Bible you even know the top quote you are responding to!

Wow, color me impressed!

Assuming that is sarcasm -- a question was asked and earnestly answered. I am asking seriously: what answer would have satisfied you?

Umm perhaps something other than what I originally told you, something that reflected your supposed deep knowledge and study? Again, you don’t have to go super deep here, it’s a big Bible.

It is not about throwing credentials on the table. It is about talking God heart to heart. Leave fancy tricks and tools or theology and rhetoric aside. Can you? No, because you run for your trusted little theological tool box and grab the first prescribed took that has been used to the blade goes dull and this is not what this is about.
If you are afraid to touch your heart and see with it then what good is the faith if it is just a toolbox full of tools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please get yourself a more sophisticated theology than you are expressing here.

God isn't magic and you suffer from a lack of imagination.

However the problem is that Jesus asks you to be like a child. Jesus is not interesting in "more sophisticated theology"
because this is where the problems begin. If you ask me the problem is with the sophisticated theology.
When Jesus came to this Earth the Laws of the God and the theology was so evolved that it was in the way of pure connection to God. Jesus came and he actually flipped it and started over. Then amazingly enough the more sophisticated theology again took over his teaching and made everything so sophisticated and so convoluted and so complicated
then the simple act of connecting to God - a prayer can not be discussed between random people without
following some rules and dogmas of catechism and sophistication.

Is a prayer a meditation to improve self, is a prayer search for truth, is a prayer request for gain, is a prayer a worship of divine superpower and submission to it's grandeur, one without want or need but pure love?

You tell me? That is all I want to know. I think most people who are religious are so because of the upbringing, and as such they have imposed ways of prayers and understanding of prayer. Maybe there is more to it? Who is to say?
Not me, I just asked question. Maybe God wants to be loved through prayer and not asked as he already knows what we need but it seems that most people are afraid to risk trusting God and need to tell him what they need because they think that God is a little minded being not superior being who needs to be told and begged. So my question is again:
can people pray to worship god and through love but not to ask for anything. This is pretty big trust and love right there.
Right?

Your post is not well written but your apparent ultimate point, that you should pray only for “love” is misguided.

Prayer is your communication with God and it is perfectly legitimate to ask for help, to ask for guidance, to ask for something you feel that you need.

Aha.. yeah, well written.. kicking the ball in a tall grass again?
I am not saying to pray for love, I am saying to express love to God through prayer.
I am saying.. and you can rewrite it to your needs:

God is great, god is god, god is loving, god is almighty. People pray to God like he is none of that,
people pray to God like he is none of that. I believe prayer is a connection go God to acknowledge your
love of him and his existence and his might and this is where prayer ends. If you have to pray for anything else you
are saying God is not neither good, nor almighty and does not know you as you hope he does.

Aside from that other type of prayer that people think is a prayer but it is a meditation to search for self.
Self is there all this time and searching for self and help from within.. God instilled it you you too so why pray for that?

So all the rest, why people pray the way they pray? Is it love of god, fear of god or "just in case".
Or is it just pure training.. years of training.. and I am afraid so.

I feel that most people are afraid to trust God in prayer. They are trained to love God through fear not love.
Maybe it is one and the same thing.. maybe it is not. I guess the more sophisticated the mind, the more God expects from you. That's all. Isn't it what God said in a way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But but but.. if God has a plan and everything is predestined then asking for something is either part of the plan or works against he plan and changes have to be made. Because when one person asks for something and it is granted, it is most likely taken away from another person.

Example - exams, jobs, lottery..

Wow genius you are the first one to ever think of that! I guess we can all stop talking about religion and go home!

I am not the PP, but if it is so frequently discussed, how is it rationalized?

This is kind of a trick to keep you in the loop. On one hand you need to be faithful and do as expected, but on the other hand everything is predestined so no matter what you do you end up in the same place. So in theory if you are good person or bad person it is predesigned, if you do god or do bad it is not going to change anything because whatever you are doing has been decided before you were born.

This is a seriously conflicted conundrum. On one hand you got a free will and can influence your destination, on the other
it has been all decided.

Think of Judas.. on one hand he had a choice.. but on the other hand he was always the took in God's hand he has been chosen to do what he did. So at the end this is quite confusing proposition. Free will or not free will?
What is it at the end? And if a person is chosen to do bad deeds for the sake of humanity's improvement then
is that person eternally damned or is the person rewarded. Judas ended up pretty badly here on Earth.

Your logic makes no sense here. Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice. That doesn’t mean that Jesus actively influenced his choice because the trajectory of events had to be a certain way.

God knows what you will do in the end. What matters is that you don’t. It’s really not that complicated nor a conspiracy.

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

You can say this again!

You really have not to see the irony of it.

Yeah there’s no irony. I can know something will happen. It doesn’t mean I exert active control over the event. You know the sun will rise tomorrow. You know your kid will eat a cookie left on the counter. The event is not really related to your control or lack thereof.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your logic makes no sense here. Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice. That doesn’t mean that Jesus actively influenced his choice because the trajectory of events had to be a certain way.

God knows what you will do in the end. What matters is that you don’t. It’s really not that complicated nor a conspiracy.

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

You can say this again!

You really have not to see the irony of it.

Yeah there’s no irony. I can know something will happen. It doesn’t mean I exert active control over the event. You know the sun will rise tomorrow. You know your kid will eat a cookie left on the counter. The event is not really related to your control or lack thereof.

Not the PP, but respectfully, the sun has no choice as to the orbit of the bodies around it. And to compare the eating of a cookie to the betrayal of a peer resulting in his violent death is a false equivalency.

But if it weren't, there still is a chance your kid won't eat the cookie. You can't know. (Maybe he didn't see it, maybe the dog gets it first, maybe he chooses to do the right thing as you taught him, maybe he is feeling nauseous...). So that analogy wouldn't work even if it were equivalent.

But most importantly, if Jesus knew because of some omniscience, then clearly Judas had no free will, even if he did not think so. The two concepts are incompatible. This is one of the main failings of the omniscient god position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your logic makes no sense here. Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice. That doesn’t mean that Jesus actively influenced his choice because the trajectory of events had to be a certain way.

God knows what you will do in the end. What matters is that you don’t. It’s really not that complicated nor a conspiracy.

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

Judas had free will, but Jesus knew he would make the wrong choice

You can say this again!

You really have not to see the irony of it.

Yeah there’s no irony. I can know something will happen. It doesn’t mean I exert active control over the event. You know the sun will rise tomorrow. You know your kid will eat a cookie left on the counter. The event is not really related to your control or lack thereof.

Not the PP, but respectfully, the sun has no choice as to the orbit of the bodies around it. And to compare the eating of a cookie to the betrayal of a peer resulting in his violent death is a false equivalency.

But if it weren't, there still is a chance your kid won't eat the cookie. You can't know. (Maybe he didn't see it, maybe the dog gets it first, maybe he chooses to do the right thing as you taught him, maybe he is feeling nauseous...). So that analogy wouldn't work even if it were equivalent.

But most importantly, if Jesus knew because of some omniscience, then clearly Judas had no free will, even if he did not think so. The two concepts are incompatible. This is one of the main failings of the omniscient god position.

You are complaining about the analogy instead of making an argument.

How does knowledge of an event in the future control the event? If I “knew” you would respond to this post, does that mean I am exerting control over you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You are complaining about the analogy instead of making an argument.

How does knowledge of an event in the future control the event? If I “knew” you would respond to this post, does that mean I am exerting control over you?

I am both complaining about the analogy and making an argument.

If we are talking about an omniscient god -- who knows 100% what will happen in advance -- how does that equate to free will in one of his creations?

They are mutually exclusive.

It's like a film - it seems like the characters are making choices in the first reel, but the second reel does not change. That's why there are "spoilers".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So let's discuss this one. If God is loving Father he should love all his creatures and children alike. No favs. Right? But if one prays for something, why should God fulfill that request? For one it is favoritism, for two it is not fair to others who did not ask... because God as a Good Father
should see the needs of his children and do his best to help them just as humans do right? A good father does not wait for a child to ask or pray but gives freely according to his abilities to help a child in need.

But! just but.. what if God does not really play favorites with humans and things happen at random? What if God wants to be just and does not help nobody over the next person? Then it would be fair and then the prayer for things and gains would have no basis. Then people would just have to be nice to God and God would not give nothing to no one. Would then people love God knowing that no matter how hard they would pray they would not get ahead of the next dude? That would be interesting to see.

Discuss

Yes, God loves all his creatures but not all creatures are his children. Until one accepts Jesus as the leader of their life — giving up control and confessing their immorality —-, there is no relationship with God. Until then, one is not a child of His. Those who decide to accept him as leader of their life (believers/children) have access to God through prayer. Those who have not accepted him do not have access to a relationship with him through prayer.

We live in a fallen world (since the fall of Adam and Eve) and as a result, bad things are going to happen while we’re here. Believers/children trust in God to help them through this difficult life until they reach eternity (his 2nd coming). There is no playing favorites. He wants everyone to come into a personal relationship with him. Love is not forced and many have rejected Him in favor of their own way. Believers/children can pray to Him but ultimately His will is going to prevail. We are to trust His will even if it doesn’t make sense to us on this side of Heaven. He sees the whole picture —- we do not and we are naive if we think we know more than the creator. As the great Billy Graham once said, “I’ve read the end of the Bible, it’s all going to turn out right.”

Bottom line, He loves each and every one of us and wants us to love Him back.

He doesn't just want us to love him -- he insists, or else.