Upper-Middle Class vs Middle-Class Lifestyles

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I thought this was fairly interesting!

I was surprised to find that with our 4 children (6 person household), our HHI of $250K puts us in the 70th percentile for the US, still in the global middle class.

If we had two children, we'd be in the 90th percentile for the US.

So, I guess DCUM middle class really is middle class!

^^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/business/global-income-calculator/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.23a6e9e0de21

The above referred to this graphic in the Post.

According to their calculator a family n Montgomery county MD needs to earn $190,000 to be considered in the top 20% or above middle class. For the country as a whole an income of $110,00 would put you on this category

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I thought this was fairly interesting!

I was surprised to find that with our 4 children (6 person household), our HHI of $250K puts us in the 70th percentile for the US, still in the global middle class.

If we had two children, we'd be in the 90th percentile for the US.

So, I guess DCUM middle class really is middle class!

^^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/business/global-income-calculator/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.23a6e9e0de21

The above referred to this graphic in the Post.

According to their calculator a family n Montgomery county MD needs to earn $190,000 to be considered in the top 20% or above middle class. For the country as a whole an income of $110,00 would put you on this category

I put in that my HHI was $3M and that I live in Yemen, and it returns that within Yemen, my income falls around the top ten percent.

Seems plausible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a public service announcement, I think Paul Fussell's book, "Class," still does the best job of defining class in America, which acknowledges that we lack a convenient system of inherited titles, ranks, and honors and each generation has to define the hierarchies all over again. I'll summarize/plagiarize the best parts for you. If you reveal your outrage at the very topic, you reveal it also by the way you define the thing that's outraging you.

At the bottom, Paul Fussell writes that people tend to believe that class is defined by the amount of money you have. They also generally don't mind discussions of class because they know they can do little to alter their class identity. In the middle, people grant that money has something to do with it, but think education and the kind of work you do is equally important. A tendency to get very anxious suggests that you are middle class and nervous about slipping down a rung or two. Nearer to the top, people perceive taste, values, ideas, style and behavior are indispensable criteria of class, regardless of money or education. Upper-class people generally love the topic of class to come up: the more attention paid, the better off they seem.

Fussell distinguishes UMC caste markers as having earned their living through law, medicine, oil, shipping, real estate and the like, living in house with more rooms than you need, role reversals among spouses (men think nothing of cooking, doing housework, etc.), and showing off costly educations by naming their cats Spinoza or Candide. I might comment that technology may alter a modern definition of UMC and the rise of McMansions likely declasses the size of a house alone as status marker. He describes an UMC office as wealthy, well kept, tasteful, impressive, comfortable, and private. UMC people tend to have controlled precise movements - the way they use their arms and where their feet fall is dramatically different from lower middle class people, who tend to swing their arms out rather than hold them in closer to their bodies. Also, class understatement is important - if your money and freedom and carelessness of censure allow you to buy any kind of car, you provide yourself with the meanest and most common to indicate that you're not taking yourself seriously with a so easily purchasable and thus vulgar class totem. A high status sport, by definition, is one that requires a great deal of expensive equipment or an expensive setting or both, ideally, it will use up goods and services rapidly. He notes that golf and skiing have sunk to middle class status or even below, although they began as high class sports because they were expensive, inconvenient, and practiced only in distant or exclusive places. Riding and yachting are class sports of the UMC or upper class not only because they're expensive but because they're archaic. He notes that it's the rare middle class American who doesn't secretly want to be UMC.

Fussell describes the middle class as distinguishable more by its earnestness and psychic insecurity than by its income. That is, he knew folks that were very rich who remained stubbornly middle class, which is to say that they remain terrified at what others think of them and to avoid criticism, are obsessed with doing everything right. The middle class is where table manners assume an awful importance. Status panic is a middle class affliction with its need to take in the New Yorker, which it imagines registers UMC taste or to borrow status from the higher elements. He notes middle class is the sort who buy their own heirlooms and issue annual family newsletters announcing their most recent triumphs as well as bumper stickers of your alma mater. Wearing your clothes either excessively new or excessively neat and clean also suggests that your social circumstances are not entirely secure. Worried a lot about their own taste and about whether it's working for or against them, members of the middle class try to arrest their natural tendency to sink downward by associating themselves, if ever so tenuously, with imagined possessors of money, power, and taste. Oddity, introversion, and the love of privacy are the big enemies, a total reversal of values of the secure upper orders. I imagine one's egregious use of social media (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, etc.) is probably a modern caste signifier of someone that isn't UMC. The middle is the class that makes cruise ships and group tours a profitable enterprise (i.e., to buy the feeling if only for a short time, of higher status). On sports, two motives urge middle class and prole fans to obsession with such diversions. One is their need to identify with winners. Another is that these classes sanction a flux of pedantry, dogmatism, record-keeping, wise secret knowledge, and pseudo-scholarship of the sort usually associated with the decision-making or executive classes. He also notes that catalog buying is the perfect way for insecure and the hypersensitive and the socially uncertain to sustain their selfhood by accumulating goods. I wonder what he'd say about online shopping and Amazon or posting on DCUM? Finally, he notes that one who makes birth or wealth the sole criterion of worth, the conventional definition for the snob, is in the middle class.

Because the American myth conveys the impression that you can readily earn or ape your way upward, disillusion and bitterness are particularly strong when you find yourself in a class system that you've been persuaded isn't important and of the difficulty of either upward or downward movement from the place you were nurtured. Fussell wonders if it can ever really be taught, particularly the UMC sense of relaxation, play and to a degree, irony (it's all a game and hence its natural leaning toward frivolities). And before those of you reading this decide to buy it and ape it, the very act of aggressively striving is a status marker in of itself. So relax and stop worrying so much about what class you are. In doing so, you'll most certainly be happier and (for those of you who really care) closer to UMC!

Perfect.

Interesting. I have definitely gravitated heavily toward not caring as our income has increased dramatically, but I attributed that more to age and life experience (I’m approaching 40 and sadly just experienced the loss of my mother in her early 60’s. That definitely makes you realize how much DOES NOT MATTER.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have done half the stuff in you describe in UMC list and half the things you describe in MC list. I'm poor.

If you're poor, are you on any type of government assistance program? And what exactly in the upper-middle class lisr have you done? Sorry, bit I don't think people accepting food stamps or whatever should spend money on a fancy cruise or expensive steakhouse.

What people don't get is that rich people and corporations get government handsouts all the time, often in exchange for promises of tax revenue or job creation that never manifests, which in turn frees up money to buy fancy things like cruises and club seats

Yes, this. It's amazing. The poors have to live as poorly as possible to justify their handouts. But the richies don't. Such BS.

Here's a thought: MYOFB. Seriously.

Here's another thought: you're a hypocrite if the "poor" situation bothers you and the rich one doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting piece on class. I'm from a country with a more entrenched class system, and it's very different. My ethnicity means it is very unlikely that I would ever be considered truly upper class in my home country, no matter how much money or education I have. But it doesn't bother me at all because I don't think of upper class as better, just different. Each class has certain traits or characteristics but these aren't enviable to me, they just are what they are.
Before I moved here I thought that the lack of traditional class system would feel very different, but it really doesn't and if anything, people are much more class conscious and seem to take into consideration whether something is "low" or "high" class before they do it, which is surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting piece on class. I'm from a country with a more entrenched class system, and it's very different. My ethnicity means it is very unlikely that I would ever be considered truly upper class in my home country, no matter how much money or education I have. But it doesn't bother me at all because I don't think of upper class as better, just different. Each class has certain traits or characteristics but these aren't enviable to me, they just are what they are.
Before I moved here I thought that the lack of traditional class system would feel very different, but it really doesn't and if anything, people are much more class conscious and seem to take into consideration whether something is "low" or "high" class before they do it, which is surprising.

This is a DCUM thing, not an America thing. I have never heard anyone in real life worry whether pasta salad was low class. It's just absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

[Anonymous]

The interesting thing is that most people who are truly struggling and literally fall within the poverty range no got considers themselves poor. Rather, they consider themselves middle class.

Yet people who are solidly upper middle class and wealthy don't recognize how fortunate they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

Not poor but middle class, nowhere near upper middle class for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I consider us upper, upper middle. 2 kids in $40k a year privates in DC. House around $2.6 million, second house around $2 million. Cars over $100k. 4 weeks international vaca a year- spend about $50k-$55k total on that. Housekeeper.

You are wealthy.

The people of dcumlandia live in a bizarre bubble where they think the struggle of surviving on a $200-500k salary is so unbearable that they fail to realize their own wealth and privilege.

If you earn north of $200k and live in a home worth anywhere near a million dollars, then you are wealthy. You are not upper middle class.

So you’re wealthy even if you can’t afford private school?

yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I consider us upper, upper middle. 2 kids in $40k a year privates in DC. House around $2.6 million, second house around $2 million. Cars over $100k. 4 weeks international vaca a year- spend about $50k-$55k total on that. Housekeeper.

You are wealthy.

The people of dcumlandia live in a bizarre bubble where they think the struggle of surviving on a $200-500k salary is so unbearable that they fail to realize their own wealth and privilege.

If you earn north of $200k and live in a home worth anywhere near a million dollars, then you are wealthy. You are not upper middle class.

So you’re wealthy even if you can’t afford private school?

yes

Yeah, that's just not accurate. Earning north of 200k puts you in the UMC category, but certainly not wealthy.

[Anonymous]

https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/2018-07-17/where-do-i-fall-in-the-american-economic-class-system

North of $350 is rich. Not UMC...rich.

Literally everyone posting in this thread is UMC. You are not MC, and you are not poor.

[Anonymous]

Everyone on DCUM is obsessed with the amount of money you make rather than the amount of money you have. I can assure you that the PP who summarized the American class system - and as a member of one of the old-money American families, if you work at all or need to work at all then you’re just splitting hairs. Once you have sufficient assets, you may be rich but that is far far from being considered upper class — at that point it becomes a matter of taste, of family, of connections, of membership and even a huge amount of net worth won’t buy you access to it automatically. I laughed at out loud at the suggestion that wealthy people live in gated commiinities. I assure you - outside of Manhattan doorman buildings, no one who was truly wealthy would be caught dead in a gated community outside of DC. Maybe in the Caribbean? But honestly the old-money doesn’t bling. It’s considered bad taste.

[Anonymous]

Middle class, never had a passport, never left the country.
Rich, takes vacations overseas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

Not poor but middle class, nowhere near upper middle class for sure.

Check out this calculator guys, it’s a bit more objective than your personal opinion:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/05/11/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

Some examples for DC metro by putting in some random numbers for a 4 person household:

50k - lower
100k - middle
150k - middle
200k - upper middle
300k - upper