Upper-Middle Class vs Middle-Class Lifestyles

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry but the "Capital Grille" mention is beyond ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

Not poor but middle class, nowhere near upper middle class for sure.

+1 You’re middle class!

Since when is $230 middle class? You might want to pop your way out of your ridiculous bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have all of the trappings and more of the upper middle class lifestyle you listed but our income is only 5% of 5 million. Why do you care OP? Is this something you aspire to? Is wealth disparity something you hate? I believe economic justice is the next big battlefront. I'm less sword about the middle class than the ones who are truely suffering.

Well of course you can have the trappings of an UMC class lifestyle with $250k. That's good money! That was my point. That the other poster who said $5 million was only UMC was completed out of touch.

And I answered your question earlier, but I'll say again: It bugs me when people who take internstional travel, put their kids in private school, and drop $300 on dinner cry about being middle class. It is a putdown to people who are truly middle class, saving $50 from their paychecks all year so they can rent an apartment at the beach in the summer. (I'm not talking about myself. I'm just empathetic.)

+1. OP - I totally get what your saying and agree!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class, never had a passport, never left the country.
Rich, takes vacations overseas.

It's not travel that distinguishes you as MC, UMC or UC, it's the way you do it. When the wealthy travel they stay in their bubble the whole time. I travelled extensively in college and did as many study abroad programs as possible. I've also backpacked across several continents and lived overseas. My parents were solidly middle class yet I prioritized travel, worked for my money, and spent frugally. I travelled to some destitute places. I saw true poverty, starvation, physical suffering, and other things we are typically insulated from here in our MC/UMC/UC American comfort zone. I've also done more vacation type overseas travel, but the older I get the more disenchanted I am with it, and I tend to spend more vacation time meeting up with family and friends than focusing on a specific location.

Your backpacking description as a student couldn't be more upper middle class than if you tried!

Do American kids backpack Europe anymore? It was a common thing to do after I graduated college in the late 90’s, especially with the UMC kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

Not poor but middle class, nowhere near upper middle class for sure.

+1 You’re middle class!

Since when is $230 middle class? You might want to pop your way out of your ridiculous bubble.

. Since you can’t even buy a decent home with this salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone on another thread suggested that it takes $10 million a year to be upper class, implying that someone earning $5 million a year is merely upper-middle. This speaks to the skewed perspective of DCUM posters, and I thought it would interesting to inject a dose of reality. The following is how I would describe a few tyoical distinctions of an upper-middle lifestyle (that approximately 15% of the population enjoy) versus the middle-class lifestyle (that about 50% of the population lives).

Upper-middle class:

1) Housing: A 2500+ SF single-family house in the suburbs, or an upscale townhouse or condo (or luxury apartment) in an affluent suburbs or the city proper (think Berhesda, McLean, DC)
2) Vacations: a 2-week luxury cruise to the Baltics, a winter ski trip, or a few trips to the (owned) beach condo or house
3) Entertainment: dinner at the Capital Grille, Kennedy Center opera or ballet, club-level seats at the Nationals
4) Education: Public school in a better-rated district or private

Middle-class:

1) Housing: An older house of less than 2500 sf in the suburbs, a townhouse, or an apartment in the suburbs (think Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, Rockville)
2) Vacations: a 1-week cruise to the Caribbean, a 4-day trip trip to Disneyworld, or a week in a beach rental
3) Entertsinment: Dinner at Outback, the movies, regular,stadium seating at the ballpark
4) Education: Public school

So, what am I, op?

5 bedroom house just shy of 2,500 in MoCo (not Bethesda, but not Germantown either).

Both DH and I have advanced degrees and professional careers. No student loans.

Travel: spring break in the Caribbean (sometimes a cruise, sometimes a resort). DE beach trips (stay at a friend's house), lots of long weekends (NYC, philly, Hershey, Williamsburg), big summer trip (alternating road trips and air travel each summer).

We prefer minor league baseball and hockey and college sports (less hassle).

Public schools (good school pyramid; not a W school, but farms are 9 or less).

Kids will likely go to UMCP (we can easily cover tuition and living expenses).

We hate skiing. And my husband would rather cut off his arm than go to the ballet.

Since when is Capital Grille fancy? We like pizza. And crabs. We'll drive to bay a handful of times each summer to eat crabs.

You are definitely poor.

Sigh.

Too bad our $230k income means we are poor.

You people are buts. Truly.

Not poor but middle class, nowhere near upper middle class for sure.

+1 You’re middle class!

Since when is $230 middle class? You might want to pop your way out of your ridiculous bubble.

. Since you can’t even buy a decent home with this salary.

Sorry but every calculator I’ve seen defines $230k as upper middle, even in the DC area. If you can’t find a decent house on that HHI you’re not looking hard enough. Of course you can’t get a mansion in Georgetown- that is for the upper class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This list makes little sense - it's very black and white. We live in a small older house in SS, send kids to public and take an annual beach vacation but I have a hard time saying we are middle class. Our HHI based on salary is 320K + bonuses ranging from 30-70K depending on the year.

We have no debt other than mortgage and a small car payment, and have over a decade of equity in our home, a really healthy retirement and college funds. Kids are in school and I have a very flex schedule so very little childcare costs during the school year. We could easily move into a million dollar home and thus hit a lot of the UMC things on your list, but we love our house (and have steadily done improvements since we moved in, so it's actually really nice), we love our neighborhood, live on a quiet street, have a great community and good walkability, and kids are thriving in school.

There are plenty of people living in crappy homes in nicer places. And there are plenty of people in crazy debt living beyond their means that are taking the vacations you describe and can't afford them. Retirement is a mess in this country.

Which is why class isn't just about income or even net worth, but also about your values and what you consume and how you consume it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In societies that are more class-bound, there is little anxiety about social status because you are stuck wherever you were born. No matter how you act, you are always defined by where in the pecking order by your grandparents and great-grandparents. There is no need to talk about it because it is a given. There's no moral failure to being a part of a lower class, just bad luck.

In contrast, the American narrative/story/myth of being class-less results in many people being unsure of their place on the ladder. Not too long ago (and maybe still) every white American -- no matter how ill-mannered, uneducated, or poor -- could always claim their whiteness to feel they were better than every person of color. Coupled with the meritocratic ideal, not being better positioned has become a sign of failure to be smart enough or good enough to make it. Some people comfort themselves by making sure the folks they think are below them stay there or want to turn the clock back to when their attributes might have been better valued. More obsess over which watch or car or other consumer good to buy to signal their rightful position or their aspiration.

An old fashioned Marxist would just ask your relationship to the means of production. Do you own the factory? Do you have to sell your labor?

smartest comment on this thread.

+1000 - very good analysis. Will plagiarize and repeat and our next dinner party

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The description PP wrote (quoted?) on middle class describes me to a T.

Super insecure my “middle class” is showing. We have a family of 6 on one income 165k. I think it puts us in lower middle class actually (income isn’t just about what you make but how many people you support)

I have no idea why it matters to me. I just realized how much easier my friends with family businesses and money have it. We have no safety net, there is definitely anxiety to keep up with our current lifestyle, and the future.

You are not middle class but you should've spent money for birth control as you cannot afford the lifestyle or kids you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, where do we fit?

- 1800 sq ft house in Shaw (worth approx $900k, but mortgage is practically paid off)
- Eat out regularly at wide variety of popular and sometimes trendy DC restaurants but not interested at either of the two places you mention
- The one time I've been to a ball game it was club seats, but generally I'm not interested in baseball and the tickets were a gift. Occasionally go to the Kennedy Center or to theater. More often go to 930 club or Lincoln theater to see live music. No interest in opera or ballet.
- take multiple trips and vacations throughout the year, usually including one trip to Europe (two weeks) or the west coast, a week in Maine, and multiple other trips, to the beach or to cities within 3 hours drive. Used to own an ocean front vacation condo in Florida but sold it (bad investment) - now we rent which makes much more financial sense.
- kids go to local public charter school.

Based on this do you declare me middle class, poor or upper middle class?

Selfish upper-class who are too cheap to send their kids to private.

Ok, PP, I'll respond. I don't believe in private school so wont be sending my kids to one even if we could afford it, but what you really need to know is that if you looked at our HHI you and most of the other snide privileged posters here would define us as "poors". Until recently our HHI was under $100k. It's now jumped to about $130k.

You either have family money or bough 20 years ago to be in a million dollar house. Your lifestyle doesn't add up with your income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh I get it. It's all about your surroundings.

We earn 750k a year and my kids feel like the poor ones at their private school. They actually asked me if we were poor, lol. I just...I didn't even know what to say.

I tell my kids we’re poor.

This is the source of the problem. People in the DC area -- especially those that grew up there -- have a skewed perspective. How is it helpful to make your kids think they're poor when they're not? How are they supposed to have empathy for those that really are poor? I had to have a discussion with my dc about why we don't do some of the things that his friends do. it's not because we're poor. We have a significant amount of money, and that's because we don't spend it on frivolous things. That's my problem with this thread. Your "class" is not dependent on how much you spend, but rather how much you have. I'm teaching my kid about how to save and invest, not how to spend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The description PP wrote (quoted?) on middle class describes me to a T.

Super insecure my “middle class” is showing. We have a family of 6 on one income 165k. I think it puts us in lower middle class actually (income isn’t just about what you make but how many people you support)

I have no idea why it matters to me. I just realized how much easier my friends with family businesses and money have it. We have no safety net, there is definitely anxiety to keep up with our current lifestyle, and the future.

You are not middle class but you should've spent money for birth control as you cannot afford the lifestyle or kids you have.

This is so nasty and hateful. Why?

[Anonymous]

This is very crazy to try to fit into the box. Everyone has different priorities, I got example hate to have large land. Cruise on the Baltic is upper middle class now? Well my parents live in Scandinavian country so it's nothing special to me. Btw south France is not prestigious for Europeans and for Americans it is luxury vacation.
Anyways, just live your life and enjoy!

[Anonymous]

This thread is so sad and desperate. Truly