The Catholic School Difference -- WSJ Article

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How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

So, why is the study a "hack study"? It does what it set out to do. If you have an issue with the WSJ or DCUM posters interpretation of it, that has nothing to do with the merits of the study itself. People are free to take from it, what they want. That is one of the purposes of it.

It's a hack study because the researchers were paid by an organization looking for a particular conclusion to do a study that they likely knew would be misrepresented, and that the confounders were so large as to cast severe doubt on any conclusions. "People are free to take from it, what they want." Seriously? No. That's not how public policy research works. This isn't a poem that people are free to interpret how they like. It's a trumped-up study intended to further the cause of diverting public money to private schools.

Of course people are free to take from it, what they want. You did. You read it, and the confounders that the study identified were a major issue for you, causing you to be skeptical.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that the "intended" purpose is to divert public money to private schools. THAT is an unsupported conclusion....but it is yours.

it's not unsupported at all. The study was funded by the Fordham Institute, which advocates for aggressive "school choice." And the Fordham Institute says as much clearly in its materials about the study: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

And saying I'm "skeptical" of the study is fake news. There's nothing to be skeptical about; the study authors (and even the Fordham Institute, to their credit) state that there can be no causal inferences here.

So your conclusions are not unsupported, but the study's conclusions are unsupported? Your conclusions as to the motivation behind the study are based on what you have read/interpreted. The study's theories are based on observations and data, with stated limitations.

Labeling the study as a "crap study" IS being skeptical of the study. You don't believe that it is useful. That is skepticism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a friend that runs a catholic high school in a very low income area. Almost all of the kids are on free lunch. Almost none of them have college educated parents and most of them have parents that didn’t finish high school. This school graduates every child and sends them all to college (community college for some). They can do this because: 1) it’s a relatively small school so they work with every kid as an individual providing whatever supports are necessary; and (2) their administration and teachers view this not just as a job but as a calling so they put in whatever time is needed to get the kids there. Can this be reproduced on a large scale by publics? Not without a lot higher taxes. But it’s great for the kids that go there. If you’re wondering how they pay for all this, the administration busts it butt raising money from middle class and rich Catholics to support the school, plus everyone is paid much less than they are worth.
I wish Americans were committed enough to education to be willing to fund a small school model for every child.

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing. The Catholic schools always get torn down on DCUM and this is one example of how they make a difference.

[Anonymous]

a quick request to the two posters who are having an interesting conversation but including their whole back and forth thread in each post; do you mind please just including the last one or two comments in your new posts so each individual post isn't so long?

[Anonymous]

I hate to break it to US "liberals", but most European countries give choices to parents, including sending their kids to Catholics schools for free (basically), as long as said schools commit to national curricula and common admission systems.

#wise

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a friend that runs a catholic high school in a very low income area. Almost all of the kids are on free lunch. Almost none of them have college educated parents and most of them have parents that didn’t finish high school. This school graduates every child and sends them all to college (community college for some). They can do this because: 1) it’s a relatively small school so they work with every kid as an individual providing whatever supports are necessary; and (2) their administration and teachers view this not just as a job but as a calling so they put in whatever time is needed to get the kids there. Can this be reproduced on a large scale by publics? Not without a lot higher taxes. But it’s great for the kids that go there. If you’re wondering how they pay for all this, the administration busts it butt raising money from middle class and rich Catholics to support the school, plus everyone is paid much less than they are worth.
I wish Americans were committed enough to education to be willing to fund a small school model for every child.

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing. The Catholic schools always get torn down on DCUM and this is one example of how they make a difference.

There are several similar Catholic schools - some high schools, some middle schools.
If you want to support some locally, check out Sisters Academy (girls) and St Ignatious Loyola in Baltimore (boys). Their goal is to get their kids into rigorous college prep high schools (typically on FA). Both schools are totally free.
https://sistersacademyofbaltimore.org/school/
http://www.saintignatius.org/

I am confident both schools would appreciate any help you can offer them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a friend that runs a catholic high school in a very low income area. Almost all of the kids are on free lunch. Almost none of them have college educated parents and most of them have parents that didn’t finish high school. This school graduates every child and sends them all to college (community college for some). They can do this because: 1) it’s a relatively small school so they work with every kid as an individual providing whatever supports are necessary; and (2) their administration and teachers view this not just as a job but as a calling so they put in whatever time is needed to get the kids there. Can this be reproduced on a large scale by publics? Not without a lot higher taxes. But it’s great for the kids that go there. If you’re wondering how they pay for all this, the administration busts it butt raising money from middle class and rich Catholics to support the school, plus everyone is paid much less than they are worth.
I wish Americans were committed enough to education to be willing to fund a small school model for every child.

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing. The Catholic schools always get torn down on DCUM and this is one example of how they make a difference.

There are several similar Catholic schools - some high schools, some middle schools.
If you want to support some locally, check out Sisters Academy (girls) and St Ignatious Loyola in Baltimore (boys). Their goal is to get their kids into rigorous college prep high schools (typically on FA). Both schools are totally free.
https://sistersacademyofbaltimore.org/school/
http://www.saintignatius.org/

I am confident both schools would appreciate any help you can offer them.

Local to the DMV are...

Washington Jesuit Academy: https://www.wjacademy.org/
San Miguel School DC https://sanmigueldc.org/
don bosco cristo rey http://www.dbcr.org/
Washington School for Girls https://www.washingtonschoolforgirls.org/
Consortium of Catholic Academies https://catholicacademies.org/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a friend that runs a catholic high school in a very low income area. Almost all of the kids are on free lunch. Almost none of them have college educated parents and most of them have parents that didn’t finish high school. This school graduates every child and sends them all to college (community college for some). They can do this because: 1) it’s a relatively small school so they work with every kid as an individual providing whatever supports are necessary; and (2) their administration and teachers view this not just as a job but as a calling so they put in whatever time is needed to get the kids there. Can this be reproduced on a large scale by publics? Not without a lot higher taxes. But it’s great for the kids that go there. If you’re wondering how they pay for all this, the administration busts it butt raising money from middle class and rich Catholics to support the school, plus everyone is paid much less than they are worth.
I wish Americans were committed enough to education to be willing to fund a small school model for every child.

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing. The Catholic schools always get torn down on DCUM and this is one example of how they make a difference.

There are several similar Catholic schools - some high schools, some middle schools.
If you want to support some locally, check out Sisters Academy (girls) and St Ignatious Loyola in Baltimore (boys). Their goal is to get their kids into rigorous college prep high schools (typically on FA). Both schools are totally free.
https://sistersacademyofbaltimore.org/school/
http://www.saintignatius.org/

I am confident both schools would appreciate any help you can offer them.

Washington Jesuit Academy: https://www.wjacademy.org/
San Miguel School DC https://sanmigueldc.org/
don bosco cristo rey http://www.dbcr.org/
Washington School for Girls https://www.washingtonschoolforgirls.org/
Consortium of Catholic Academies https://catholicacademies.org/

We are at one of the Consortium Catholic Schools in DC - St. Anthony's Catholic school and absolutely love it! I mean seriously love it. We are a MC/UMC (who knows how this is defined these days) and are beyond thrilled with the care, dedication, and education that our child is getting there. It's an extremely strong and warm program. They had a Spanish spelling bee a few weeks ago for grades 1-8. I was blown away. Everything was done in Spanish from asking to repeat the word, use the word in a sentence etc. As far as discipline goes, I have observed how the older kids are disciplined and honestly they seem to do a better job than we do at home. I remember volunteering at lunch time a few weeks ago with the older kids (our kid is in primary school) and it was a special lunch (taco lunch). The teacher in charge of lunch announced that everyone should get their lunch and that those who are having silent lunch (and she said they know who they are) should get their lunch and then meet at the table where she was for their lunch. The other approach I've observed is that kids get sent to the admin office which is in the entry way. They come with their homework and are either sitting down on the benches doing work or are helping the administrative assistant with tasks. This is usually after school so maybe its aftercare issues that are dealt with this way. The kids are warm and caring. The older kids all know the younger kids and constantly stop and call out to the younger kids and give hugs etc. to them (and this includes the 8th graders). So much so that I'm taking our pk3er to the 8th grade graduation this week because he has so many friends in 8th grade (who would have thought)!

As far as volunteering, I don't think they would be opposed to volunteers, but all volunteers at any of the Archdiocese Catholic Schools, including parents, have to take a 3 hour sexual assault training as well as get background checked prior to having any interaction with children (including being chaperones on trips etc.).

I went to private schools growing up including a few years in catholic school in NY when I was younger. Our neighborhood school was not an option for our kids as our school has a bit of a ways to go. We were seeking a strong academic environment that was warm with a parent body that shared similar values to us and that was the draw for us when selecting this school. We wouldn't have been opposed to a good public school but found what we were looking for in this pk3-8th catholic school.

[Anonymous]

I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

I'm assuming you work in a public school where laws apply and student have civil rights, right? Your school is the government and we put limits on our government. I agree with the attitude issue, but your school is not ridiculous when it points out that they have legally defined procedures they have to follow when it comes to rule enforcement and discipline. And for the most part, the rules they don't enforce well are the ones they know or think may be found unlawful, so they don't push the envelope with the violators in order to keep the rule in place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

I'm assuming you work in a public school where laws apply and student have civil rights, right? Your school is the government and we put limits on our government. I agree with the attitude issue, but your school is not ridiculous when it points out that they have legally defined procedures they have to follow when it comes to rule enforcement and discipline. And for the most part, the rules they don't enforce well are the ones they know or think may be found unlawful, so they don't push the envelope with the violators in order to keep the rule in place.

Oh Please!! This is exactly why kids are so entitled in the public schools. There are no boundaries whatsoever. So glad both of my kids are in Catholic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

I'm assuming you work in a public school where laws apply and student have civil rights, right? Your school is the government and we put limits on our government. I agree with the attitude issue, but your school is not ridiculous when it points out that they have legally defined procedures they have to follow when it comes to rule enforcement and discipline. And for the most part, the rules they don't enforce well are the ones they know or think may be found unlawful, so they don't push the envelope with the violators in order to keep the rule in place.

The kids should get to do whatever they want because we might be violating their civil rights? This is one of the many reasons why people leave public school. When the kids are in charge, good luck with the educational part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

I'm assuming you work in a public school where laws apply and student have civil rights, right? Your school is the government and we put limits on our government. I agree with the attitude issue, but your school is not ridiculous when it points out that they have legally defined procedures they have to follow when it comes to rule enforcement and discipline. And for the most part, the rules they don't enforce well are the ones they know or think may be found unlawful, so they don't push the envelope with the violators in order to keep the rule in place.

The kids should get to do whatever they want because we might be violating their civil rights? This is one of the many reasons why people leave public school. When the kids are in charge, good luck with the educational part.

x1000 I am not the teacher who wrote the first post but her assessment of what would happen is on target for my school. Actually our AP would probably come ask me why I had sent the kid to the office, didn't I know she was busy? Well, yes, she is busy because she didn't handle the little things at the beginning of the year and now all those kids are into bigger and better things. We reap what we sow in public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love my son's Catholic school. He got in trouble for being on an unapproved website while he was supposed to be doing research. At my school, if I sent a kid like this to an admin, he'd be back in class in 10 minutes. No consequences. My son was sent to the middle school principal, had to write a letter of apology to the teacher on the other side of the office referral. He said the principal told him it needed to be his neatest work or he would have to write it again. I have never seen such beautiful handwriting in my life. I had to sign it and return it. When I asked him about it, he said, "It really was a stupid choice." Was his teacher blamed for this? Nope. It was his choice. At my school, had I sent this paper home, I would've gotten a parent screaming in my face the next day or radio silence. In Catholic schools, parents agree to the rules/procedures in the student code of conduct and they back this up at home. My son doesn't have a cell phone but if he did, he would have to put it in the box in his homeroom where it would be all day. At my school, we have the same policy. When I see students sneaking looks at their phones, many of them refuse to hand them over. The admin tells me I cannot take them from them so... Ridiculous. It reminds me of this cartoon showing the parents from 1960 getting upset with their child for failing grades. These days, the parent is getting mad at the teacher.

I'm assuming you work in a public school where laws apply and student have civil rights, right? Your school is the government and we put limits on our government. I agree with the attitude issue, but your school is not ridiculous when it points out that they have legally defined procedures they have to follow when it comes to rule enforcement and discipline. And for the most part, the rules they don't enforce well are the ones they know or think may be found unlawful, so they don't push the envelope with the violators in order to keep the rule in place.

As a parent, I find this response comical. They are CHILDREN. Yes, they have civil rights. They should be respected, and not physically or emotionally harmed. Taking their phone away is not freaking violating their civil rights. How are they going to learn to follow normal, reasonable rules as adults when no one can enforce them when they are CHILDREN?

[Anonymous]

Don't shoot the messenger folks. This is in fact why public schools have more trouble with rules than private schools.

"As the U.S. Supreme Court once declared, students do not "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door.""

https://education.findlaw.com/student-rights.html

https://www.aclu.org/blog/juvenile-justice/student-rights-school-six-things-you-need-know

[Anonymous]

No one is saying that misbehaving children should lose their constitutional rights. We are asserting that misbehaving children need to respect the constitutional rights of others. No one gets a free pass to go stomping on someone else's rights and, if they do violate someone's rights, then there needs to be an appropriate consequence.