The Catholic School Difference -- WSJ Article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What they said is because of self selection the comparison to public is not valid but the comparison to other privates is.


Where does it say this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a non-profit in Providence, RI called RISE which utilizes Catholic schools as part of their program. The organization raises money for scholarships to provide to kids of incarcerated parents. These kids are mainly inner city kids who are part of a failing public school system. Those enrolled in the program are sent to local Catholic schools instead. Many would have eventually ended up in jail themselves if not for this program. It has been in existence for 20 years, and one of the first kids who participated in the program is starting law school soon.

Catholic schools are a wonderful inexpensive alternative to public schools when they fail our children.

http://www.riseonline.org/

i'm the person criticizing this study, and I actually don't disagree at all. If Catholic schools have a successful instructional model and good outcomes, more power to them. You don't need to create bad research to support Catholic schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What they said is because of self selection the comparison to public is not valid but the comparison to other privates is.


Where does it say this?


I don't see anything that suggests that the comparision is only vaild for other privates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

[Anonymous]

I have a friend that runs a catholic high school in a very low income area. Almost all of the kids are on free lunch. Almost none of them have college educated parents and most of them have parents that didn’t finish high school. This school graduates every child and sends them all to college (community college for some). They can do this because: 1) it’s a relatively small school so they work with every kid as an individual providing whatever supports are necessary; and (2) their administration and teachers view this not just as a job but as a calling so they put in whatever time is needed to get the kids there. Can this be reproduced on a large scale by publics? Not without a lot higher taxes. But it’s great for the kids that go there. If you’re wondering how they pay for all this, the administration busts it butt raising money from middle class and rich Catholics to support the school, plus everyone is paid much less than they are worth.
I wish Americans were committed enough to education to be willing to fund a small school model for every child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

[Anonymous]

What they said is because of self selection the comparison to public is not valid but the comparison to other privates is.


Where does it say this?

If you go to this link https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

then scroll down to Report Materials and open the .pdf.

I would copy and paste the section but it takes a long time for it to open on my computer for some reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

So, why is the study a "hack study"? It does what it set out to do. If you have an issue with the WSJ or DCUM posters interpretation of it, that has nothing to do with the merits of the study itself. People are free to take from it, what they want. That is one of the purposes of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

So, why is the study a "hack study"? It does what it set out to do. If you have an issue with the WSJ or DCUM posters interpretation of it, that has nothing to do with the merits of the study itself. People are free to take from it, what they want. That is one of the purposes of it.

It's a hack study because the researchers were paid by an organization looking for a particular conclusion to do a study that they likely knew would be misrepresented, and that the confounders were so large as to cast severe doubt on any conclusions. "People are free to take from it, what they want." Seriously? No. That's not how public policy research works. This isn't a poem that people are free to interpret how they like. It's a trumped-up study intended to further the cause of diverting public money to private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

So, why is the study a "hack study"? It does what it set out to do. If you have an issue with the WSJ or DCUM posters interpretation of it, that has nothing to do with the merits of the study itself. People are free to take from it, what they want. That is one of the purposes of it.

It's a hack study because the researchers were paid by an organization looking for a particular conclusion to do a study that they likely knew would be misrepresented, and that the confounders were so large as to cast severe doubt on any conclusions. "People are free to take from it, what they want." Seriously? No. That's not how public policy research works. This isn't a poem that people are free to interpret how they like. It's a trumped-up study intended to further the cause of diverting public money to private schools.

Of course people are free to take from it, what they want. You did. You read it, and the confounders that the study identified were a major issue for you, causing you to be skeptical.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that the "intended" purpose is to divert public money to private schools. THAT is an unsupported conclusion....but it is yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.

It's self-selection, by the parents. And yes, you also would have to look at expulsion/drop-out rates as well. This is a hack study with an agenda.

If the parents are the ones deciding whether to send their kids to Catholic school or not, then it is not "self-selection" on the school's part. But, even if this were relevant, are you saying that the results of the study are due to the fact that only parents with "well behaved" kids choose to send their kids to Catholic school? How would you even know if this is occurring? And, if it were, then why would you even need to look at "expulsion/drop-out rates", if "self-selection" by parents was being practiced?

Science is hard. "self-selection" means that these children have characteristics that pre-dispose them to be more "disciplined." It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much, although it drastically underplays it.

Actually, the authors of the research paper appear to say that they cannot say for sure whether students in Catholic school are "pre-disposed" to be more disciplined, or whether it is something special the school does. See summary paragraph at the top of page 24. I don't see anything in the paper that could be interpreted as "It's not something special the school does". Subsequently, they do outline some reasons why it might be something that the school IS doing.

Yes -- exactly what I said. They admit the confounders and underplay them.

I have no issue if you want to send your kid to Catholic schools, and I don't doubt they are good places for many kids. But this study is crap.

No....that's not what you said. You said that "It's not something special the school does. The research paper actually says as much..." Again, the paper does NOT say this. It says that it cannot say for sure what the reasons are, but they do offer theories.

Sure, but everyone on this thread (and likely the WSJ article) misreads the study to say "Catholic schools create disciplined kids! Science proves this!" Which it doesn't say at all. There are observable differences between Catholic school students and other students, but they don't know why. Could be the school, but they can't really say, because they can't control for all the factors that might make students who enroll in Catholic schools different from other kids.

For instance, Catholic school kids may be ... more likely to be Catholic and go to church and be parish members (obviously). I don't believe the research examines that. This could make them more disciplined.
Catholic school kids likely pay some tuition. This means that they have family resources (which may not be represented in the research, which likely only looks at parental income). This could make them more disciplined and better students.
Catholic school kids likely have PARENTS who value discipline and tradition (as evinced by their decision to chose Catholic schools, which are known for discipline and tradition). This likely means that they were raised with more discipline.
Catholic school kids have parents with the cultural capital and motivation to enroll them in Catholic school. This likely means that they were raised in an environment that prioritizes education.

This study can't isolate any of these factors.

There actually IS a research method that has integrity to examine differences in school types. That's the research on charters, which compares students who won the lottery to students who didn't. In those cases, the main difference between the kids is difference is random chance. Now, that research STILL can't compare charters to kids who never entered the lottery, but it's still a step up from this hack research.

Yes, there are subjective factors that the study cannot account for. However, to say that a Catholic school (and it's community, which is a big part of the school) has nothing to do with encouraging/fostering self-discipline is ridiculous.

That's like saying that IMG academy does not make better athletes, because the students were already great athletes before they enrolled there.

Ok, so what's the point of this research? If you're just going to make factually unsupported conclusions, then you don't need to bolster your claims with faulty research anyway.

PS the point is not that Catholic school classrooms appear more disciplined than others. I'm sure that's true. The question is whether there's something special about the Catholic method that makes the KIDS more self-discplined. This study does not show that. It could be that ANY school with more resources and a strong culture could produce more self-disciplined kids. It could be that the kids who enroll in Catholic school would still be self-discplined at any other school.

The point of the research was to determine IF there are differences in self discipline between students in Catholic schools, vs. non Catholic schools. See the executive summary on page 5. The only hard and fast conclusion that the study comes to, is that there IS an observable (and thus measurable/comparable) difference in self discipline in Catholic schools. The study clearly acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint/say for certainty WHY this difference in self discipline was observed. Thus, it offers theories as to why....this includes subjective factors as well. See paragraph 2 of the executive summary, which states that a goal is to determine what other schools might learn from Catholic schools with respect to fostering certain behaviors. I don't think the purpose of the study was to definitively say WHY this occurs.

Catholic schools have always offered self discipline as one of their basic tenets. This study attempts to determine, if in fact, that is true.

You're summarizing the study correctly; posters on this thread and the WSJ article are not. I mean, the freakin' headline is "The Catholic School Difference: A new study shows the benefit of demanding student self-discipline." And of course, the underlying goal of the research sponsors (the conservative Fordham Institute) is to divert public funding to Catholic schools: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

So, why is the study a "hack study"? It does what it set out to do. If you have an issue with the WSJ or DCUM posters interpretation of it, that has nothing to do with the merits of the study itself. People are free to take from it, what they want. That is one of the purposes of it.

It's a hack study because the researchers were paid by an organization looking for a particular conclusion to do a study that they likely knew would be misrepresented, and that the confounders were so large as to cast severe doubt on any conclusions. "People are free to take from it, what they want." Seriously? No. That's not how public policy research works. This isn't a poem that people are free to interpret how they like. It's a trumped-up study intended to further the cause of diverting public money to private schools.

Of course people are free to take from it, what they want. You did. You read it, and the confounders that the study identified were a major issue for you, causing you to be skeptical.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that the "intended" purpose is to divert public money to private schools. THAT is an unsupported conclusion....but it is yours.

it's not unsupported at all. The study was funded by the Fordham Institute, which advocates for aggressive "school choice." And the Fordham Institute says as much clearly in its materials about the study: "We should not underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior—and shouldn’t restrict families’ choices on the basis of religion."

https://edexcellence.net/publications/self-discipline-and-catholic-schools

And saying I'm "skeptical" of the study is fake news. There's nothing to be skeptical about; the study authors (and even the Fordham Institute, to their credit) state that there can be no causal inferences here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic schools can kick out disruptive students and not worry about the missing tuition money for that student because they are not paying rent or taxes for their school property.

This ability to kick out or not accept disruptive students AND the religious emphasis on not sinning in Catholic schools combine to make for more orderly schools than public schools and some other private schools.

You know, it's funny, I hear this line a lot, but in my actual experience over the last two decades, I am having a hard time recalling an actual (albeit admittedly anecdotal) case of that happening.

+1 top PP, I'm a product of Catholic school and my kids attended one until 6th grade (now at a private independent). I am not a hard-core Catholic, imo there are lots of issues, but on this one I do think they get it right, so I'm just going to focus on this issue.

Catholics are really interested in each kid as an individual (think of it as they look at them as a unique soul). I know, you can roll your eyes on that, but it does affect their mentality toward the kids. They may not have an IEP program but they are very invested in helping out each individual kid. And they try really hard with the kids whose parents have issues (meaning...if the parents have problems, they want to really keep the kid in the healthy and supportive environment of the school; want to help that kid thrive despite the difficult home life). I don't recall anyone being kicked out (except I do know one kid who was not allowed to graduate from 8th because he hacked into and changed his grades. His offer to a Catholic HS--based in part on those grades--was pulled, and LSS, they are working it out so he may be able to go next year. There were some younger kids involved in this too and they were not pulled but I know there was a ton of behind-the-scenes stuff re them.)

The other thing that is very much stressed in the two Catholic schools that my kids attended is gratitude. It's just part of the value system. Being thankful for this, and that, and oh, this happened today, let's be thankful that that happened....we are so lucky; others are not, let's help them....on and on, every day. It's really good in that way. I believe gratitude is a (necessary but not sufficient) key to happiness, and happy people tend to be more productive and have positive effects on their environment...so, in that regard, I think the Catholic schools have got something right.