The Catholic School Difference -- WSJ Article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic school is not the way I would choose to imbue discipline in kids.

I’d love to see the studies that quantify the legacy of emotional and psychological damage that people the world over have from attending Catholic schools. That’s not even introducing the record of sexual abuse and pedophilia.

Here some more good stories for you, smart ass:


https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Family-Reports-Sexual-Abuse-at-DC-School-Where-Girl-Was-Found-Dead-471176323.html

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/police-investigating-alleged-inappropriate-touching-by-former-staff-member-at-dc-charter-school

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/in-its-response-to-a-sexual-abuse-allegation-sidwell-friends-joins-other-private-schools-in-pursuit-of-more-transparency/2017/05/09/aa2d6d76-31ac-11e7-8674-437ddb6e813e_story.html?utm_term=.7e0de57dead9

http://wjla.com/news/crime/man-accused-of-child-sex-abuse-employed-by-prestigious-private-school-113864

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/magazine/the-horace-mann-schools-secret-history-of-sexual-abuse.html

I will wait for your links about abuse in DMV Catholic schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic school is not the way I would choose to imbue discipline in kids.

I’d love to see the studies that quantify the legacy of emotional and psychological damage that people the world over have from attending Catholic schools. That’s not even introducing the record of sexual abuse and pedophilia.

While you wait, you can check all the horrible cases of sexual abuse and pedophilia in independent and public schools in our area. Two examples:

https://wtop.com/dc/2017/03/georgetown-day-school-teacher-charged-with-sex-abuse/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/ex-charter-school-teacher-sentenced-to-8-years-in-prison-for-sexually-assaulting-six-students/2017/12/01/860c168c-d6e2-11e7-95bf-df7c19270879_story.html?utm_term=.b60ba20747f2

Do you have any example of abuse in a Catholic school here in our area, dear?

I don't think there are tons of abuse allegations at the Catholic Schools... just public and other privates. It feels like almost every school has it now.

My DC didn't suffer (or heard about) any abuse problem in any Catholic school in this area. None. ZERO. But the private and public schools have tons of cases. GDS, Sidwell, Mann, LAMB,...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great article in WSJ on the effect of Catholic schools on kids and self discipline.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-catholic-school-difference-1527894168

"The authors found statistically meaningful evidence that students in Catholic schools exhibited less disruptive behavior than their counterparts in other schools. “According to their teachers, Catholic school children argued, fought, got angry, acted impulsively, and disturbed ongoing activities less frequently,” the authors write. Specifically, students in Catholic schools “were more likely to control their temper, respect others’ property, accept their fellow students’ ideas, and handle peer pressure.” In other words, they exhibited more self-discipline."

"We also know that, especially in urban areas, black and Latino students who attend Catholic schools show higher achievement, higher graduation rates and higher college enrollment than those at nearby public schools."

“Don’t underestimate the power of religion to positively influence a child’s behavior. Religion isn’t the only way to foster self-discipline, the authors emphasize, but it’s effective compared to most of the alternatives in channeling youthful energy into productive self-control."

Not surprising. That's why parents value them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

[Anonymous]

Just reinforces what my husband and I have known all along. We both attend catholic schools k-12 and are very committed to doing the same with our children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Catholic schools can kick out disruptive students and not worry about the missing tuition money for that student because they are not paying rent or taxes for their school property.

This ability to kick out or not accept disruptive students AND the religious emphasis on not sinning in Catholic schools combine to make for more orderly schools than public schools and some other private schools.

In theory it makes sense that Catholic schools can kick out disruptive students but the reality is that they won't … so it is good that they usually don't. Most parochial schools are so highly subsidized by their parishes and live so close to the line for financial worthiness that they are absolutely loathe to dismiss or expel a student. Fortunately, as the article and study point out, it isn't much of an issue for most schools. There is a lot to be said for self-selection -and- the rigor and expectation set of being raised in a family where Catholicism is actively practiced. The onus is definitely upon the child to be compliant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic schools can kick out disruptive students and not worry about the missing tuition money for that student because they are not paying rent or taxes for their school property.

This ability to kick out or not accept disruptive students AND the religious emphasis on not sinning in Catholic schools combine to make for more orderly schools than public schools and some other private schools.

In theory it makes sense that Catholic schools can kick out disruptive students but the reality is that they won't … so it is good that they usually don't. Most parochial schools are so highly subsidized by their parishes and live so close to the line for financial worthiness that they are absolutely loathe to dismiss or expel a student. Fortunately, as the article and study point out, it isn't much of an issue for most schools. There is a lot to be said for self-selection -and- the rigor and expectation set of being raised in a family where Catholicism is actively practiced. The onus is definitely upon the child to be compliant.

oops ^they usually don't have to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Catholic school is not the way I would choose to imbue discipline in kids.

I’d love to see the studies that quantify the legacy of emotional and psychological damage that people the world over have from attending Catholic schools. That’s not even introducing the record of sexual abuse and pedophilia.

Most Catholic schools nowadays are lay-run, or they may have clergy principals but all the teachers are laypeople. The dynamics are different from what they used to be and I suspect parents are less inclined now to allow male clergy unsupervised access to their children. Hopefully everyone knows better now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic school is not the way I would choose to imbue discipline in kids.

I’d love to see the studies that quantify the legacy of emotional and psychological damage that people the world over have from attending Catholic schools. That’s not even introducing the record of sexual abuse and pedophilia.

Most Catholic schools nowadays are lay-run, or they may have clergy principals but all the teachers are laypeople. The dynamics are different from what they used to be and I suspect parents are less inclined now to allow male clergy unsupervised access to their children. Hopefully everyone knows better now.

What about the male teachers from LAMB, GDS, Sidwell, Mann, just to mention some cases from prestigious local schools? Looks like all those parents didn't know better. Or everyone assume it only would happen in Catholic schools? Wake up, people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How did they control for confounders? That seems VERY difficult to do.

Propensity score matching using ECLS-K study. Methods probably not going to pass muster among DCUM econometricians.

yeah, probably not, given that Catholic school admission is obviously VERY self-selecting.

Read the study.

I just did. They say upfront that their are likely many more confounders. This is a crap study.

Also they don't track how many kids are expelled from the Catholic schools either.

I would not worry too much about the expulsion rate. I cannot imagine the number would be material because there usually are not are many students expelled from Catholic schools. When I taught at one, we didn't expel a single child in 5 years; not because we wanted to and didn't but because there just wasn't a need. And my husband and I have sent our kids to a different parochial school over a time frame of 20+ years and I only know of 2 students who have been expelled during that period. My supposition about the low expulsion rate is that it stems from the self-selection, and that Catholic schools tend to be very hands-on with a lot of parent volunteering. This means that if it isn't your mom in the classroom then it is your best buddy's mom in the classroom, and you would be an awfully dumb or willful child to misbehave under those circumstances.

OK well, then you prove the point either way.

Any theory that students in Catholic schools are more well behaved because of a selection process (which purportedly would have "weeded out" certain kids), is misguided. In most Catholic elementary schools, students start in PK or K and stay until 8th grade (yes there are some kids that transfer in, in later grades, but that number is small compared to the number of kids who start early). For students starting in PK/K, how selective could an admission process be (based on behavior)? It's not like they have been in (any) school for enough time to develop a record of bad behavior that might be grounds for a Catholic school to deny them admission into PK or K.

The Catholic schools I have been associated with, put a great emphasis on character, personal development and responsibility to the community. Students are taught such values from an early age. This is much more likely to be the reason for results such as those published in the above study, as opposed to the theory that somehow the students in Catholic schools are well behaved because the bad apples have been weeded out along the way.