Moving from belief in God, to belief in Jesus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand what OP is going through.

You need to develop a relationship with Jesus.

A relationship requires getting to know someone, and talking to them. So you would read the Bible, and pray for guidance.

It's a journey for all of us, OP.

If Jesus is so important for our salvation, why is it so hard for some people to develop a relationship with him or to pray, and why do they have to to go on a journey? Some people just naturally believe in Jesus because they were taught from birth to do so and the teaching worked.

Others don't learn from their parents or can't quite make themselves believe that a guy who lived over 2,000 years ago died for them and they have to believe in him or else they will suffer in hell for ETERNITY. It seems like if Jesus really loved us he'd make it easier for all of us to believe in him.

Maybe he doesn't want all of us in heaven with him. Maybe it's crowded up there or he and his father and the holy spirit are not so welcoming and benevolent after all.

I don't actually agree with any of your premises.

It's not hard. It's like growing up, a progression. You have to put something into your spiritual life to get something out of it.
Nobody just "naturally believes in Jesus." Not anyone I've met at least.
There is very little known about "suffering in hell for eternity." There is very little detail in the bible about it. Nobody knows what hell is or if it exists as we understand it.
If you think that a god exists who doesn't care about you... good for you, I guess? I mean, why would you think that matters to anyone other than yourself?

I guess my question is, if you are living a good life without God, why are you debating people on the internet about it? Why do you think that your beliefs matter so much that you want to convince everyone that you are right? I honestly am not very concerned about what other people believe, as long as they are not hurting anyone else.

Why not, if belief in Jesus is so important to our salvation (according to believers in Jesus) is it not natural to believe in him? Why would God, who supposedly loves us, make a world in which so many of his children never hear about Jesus and many others have difficulty believing in him?

Many people think they do know what hell is - they learn about it in Sunday school and church and from their familes - and spend a lot of time trying to convince and scare others about it. Should that be acceptable and encouraged in a civilized society?

If Christians tell people about Jesus, you tell us not to scare people. And then you blame God that people don't hear about Jesus?

Are you suggesting that humans are more powerful than god?

Also, telling people about Jesus if not the same as threatening people about what happens if they don't believe in him. Many non-Christians learn about Jesus and other religious and historical figures without being told how they must feel about them.

No, I'm not, but Christians are told in the Bible to share the Gospel. Jesus Himself told us to do that in Matthew 28. Paul wrote about it in Romans 10. Just to name two. And you can't properly talk about Jesus without talking about Hell, which is what He came to save us from.

But that is coming from your beliefs. Other people recognize that the Bible was written by men many years after Jesus died, and therefore believe that what has been attributed to him is either made up or distorted as early Christians sought to expand their numbers. And the concept of hell came about later. Jesus never talked about it. The early Christians were getting frustrated that the stubborn Jews (and others, but the target was Jews) would not give in and abandon their religion, so they had to come up with a threatening punishment.

And, unfortunately, it continues today. I'm sure I'm not the only Jew who has been harassed, disrespected, and even bullied by Christians who hold my religious beliefs in disdain, with repeated warnings about the fate that awaits me if I won't see that they are the only ones whom G-d loves. I believe in a much more loving G-d.

Other Christians have experienced similar bad behavior from their "fellow" Christians. Some Christians don't consider Roman Catholics - who date back to 325 AD - to be Christians at all..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Also, telling people about Jesus if not the same as threatening people about what happens if they don't believe in him. Many non-Christians learn about Jesus and other religious and historical figures without being told how they must feel about them.

No, I'm not, but Christians are told in the Bible to share the Gospel. Jesus Himself told us to do that in Matthew 28. Paul wrote about it in Romans 10. Just to name two. And you can't properly talk about Jesus without talking about Hell, which is what He came to save us from.
But that is coming from your beliefs. Other people recognize that the Bible was written by men many years after Jesus died, and therefore believe that what has been attributed to him is either made up or distorted as early Christians sought to expand their numbers. And the concept of hell came about later. Jesus never talked about it. The early Christians were getting frustrated that the stubborn Jews (and others, but the target was Jews) would not give in and abandon their religion, so they had to come up with a threatening punishment.

And, unfortunately, it continues today. I'm sure I'm not the only Jew who has been harassed, disrespected, and even bullied by Christians who hold my religious beliefs in disdain, with repeated warnings about the fate that awaits me if I won't see that they are the only ones whom G-d loves. I believe in a much more loving G-d.

I recognize you. You come on here almost weekly to harass, disrespect, bully, and treat Christians with disdain. Go figure. This despite the fact that most Christians here are arguing that you will NOT go to hell and only one lone fundie poster seems to hold that position. You shut these majority voices out and focus on your sense of victimhood. For many people, victimhood reinforces identity and that seems to be your game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Also, telling people about Jesus if not the same as threatening people about what happens if they don't believe in him. Many non-Christians learn about Jesus and other religious and historical figures without being told how they must feel about them.

No, I'm not, but Christians are told in the Bible to share the Gospel. Jesus Himself told us to do that in Matthew 28. Paul wrote about it in Romans 10. Just to name two. And you can't properly talk about Jesus without talking about Hell, which is what He came to save us from.

But that is coming from your beliefs. Other people recognize that the Bible was written by men many years after Jesus died, and therefore believe that what has been attributed to him is either made up or distorted as early Christians sought to expand their numbers. And the concept of hell came about later. Jesus never talked about it. The early Christians were getting frustrated that the stubborn Jews (and others, but the target was Jews) would not give in and abandon their religion, so they had to come up with a threatening punishment.

And, unfortunately, it continues today. I'm sure I'm not the only Jew who has been harassed, disrespected, and even bullied by Christians who hold my religious beliefs in disdain, with repeated warnings about the fate that awaits me if I won't see that they are the only ones whom G-d loves. I believe in a much more loving G-d.

I recognize you. You come on here almost weekly to harass, disrespect, bully, and treat Christians with disdain. Go figure. This despite the fact that most Christians here are arguing that you will NOT go to hell and only one lone fundie poster seems to hold that position. You shut these majority voices out and focus on your sense of victimhood. For many people, victimhood reinforces identity and that seems to be your game.

That's not me. The last time I posted (before this) was at least three or four months ago. Apparently, there is more than one Jew who has been harassed by the fundies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Also, telling people about Jesus if not the same as threatening people about what happens if they don't believe in him. Many non-Christians learn about Jesus and other religious and historical figures without being told how they must feel about them.

No, I'm not, but Christians are told in the Bible to share the Gospel. Jesus Himself told us to do that in Matthew 28. Paul wrote about it in Romans 10. Just to name two. And you can't properly talk about Jesus without talking about Hell, which is what He came to save us from.

But that is coming from your beliefs. Other people recognize that the Bible was written by men many years after Jesus died, and therefore believe that what has been attributed to him is either made up or distorted as early Christians sought to expand their numbers. And the concept of hell came about later. Jesus never talked about it. The early Christians were getting frustrated that the stubborn Jews (and others, but the target was Jews) would not give in and abandon their religion, so they had to come up with a threatening punishment.

And, unfortunately, it continues today. I'm sure I'm not the only Jew who has been harassed, disrespected, and even bullied by Christians who hold my religious beliefs in disdain, with repeated warnings about the fate that awaits me if I won't see that they are the only ones whom G-d loves. I believe in a much more loving G-d.

I recognize you. You come on here almost weekly to harass, disrespect, bully, and treat Christians with disdain. Go figure. This despite the fact that most Christians here are arguing that you will NOT go to hell and only one lone fundie poster seems to hold that position. You shut these majority voices out and focus on your sense of victimhood. For many people, victimhood reinforces identity and that seems to be your game.

That's not me. The last time I posted (before this) was at least three or four months ago. Apparently, there is more than one Jew who has been harassed by the fundies.

It's not me either - and it doesn't matter re "majority voices" - I don't see how any one person or any majority can define exactly what Christianity is, since there have been so many voices over the centuries. That just a fact -- and in many cases, it's been a good thing. No more burning at the stake, for instance. Or sending women unwillingly to the convent. Or disallowing birth control (in some branches of Christianity).

Christianity, like so much of human culture, changes with the times and with the needs and desires of different groups of people.

[Anonymous]

You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

It's nice that a quote supportive of good Christians exists from the year 360. I suppose if you dug around a little you could find recoreds of really nasty things Christins did as well. Perhaps the early Christisn "led by example" but many good, upstanding Christians (e.g., during the inquisition) mercilessly tortured unbelievers.

As for "Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity" -- it depends how you define "belief." Many sophisticated Christians thrive by beliving in the metaphor of rebirth, not in actuality of the resusitation of a corpse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

It's nice that a quote supportive of good Christians exists from the year 360. I suppose if you dug around a little you could find recoreds of really nasty things Christins did as well. Perhaps the early Christisn "led by example" but many good, upstanding Christians (e.g., during the inquisition) mercilessly tortured unbelievers.

As for "Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity" -- it depends how you define "belief." Many sophisticated Christians thrive by beliving in the metaphor of rebirth, not in actuality of the resusitation of a corpse.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

For one, the vast majority of Christian churches have a "creed" that is a statement of belief. Christ's death and resurrection is always part of that.

People who believe the resurrection is a metaphor are not Christians. They may be terribly sophisticated, I don't know or care. But they're not Christian.

And btw, if you believe in God, why wouldn't you believe in re-animation of a corpse? Current human technology manages to re-animate dead people after a few minutes, you think the Creator of the Universe couldn't manage it? I just never get this argument.

And Christianity's initial spread was not through bad behavior. This is just a fact. Christians were persecuted and martyred all over the place, and Christianity still spread.

Do yourself a favor and learn more about this topic!

[Anonymous]

This thread exemplifies the reason why so many people are becoming either agnostic or atheists outright. The concept of Christianity to so many of its claimed practitioners is nothing more than an abstract concept, adjustable to the believer's whim from day to day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread exemplifies the reason why so many people are becoming either agnostic or atheists outright. The concept of Christianity to so many of its claimed practitioners is nothing more than an abstract concept, adjustable to the believer's whim from day to day.

Wishful thinking on your part. Almost... magical thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

It's nice that a quote supportive of good Christians exists from the year 360. I suppose if you dug around a little you could find recoreds of really nasty things Christins did as well. Perhaps the early Christisn "led by example" but many good, upstanding Christians (e.g., during the inquisition) mercilessly tortured unbelievers.

As for "Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity" -- it depends how you define "belief." Many sophisticated Christians thrive by beliving in the metaphor of rebirth, not in actuality of the resusitation of a corpse.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

For one, the vast majority of Christian churches have a "creed" that is a statement of belief. Christ's death and resurrection is always part of that.

People who believe the resurrection is a metaphor are not Christians. They may be terribly sophisticated, I don't know or care. But they're not Christian.

And btw, if you believe in God, why wouldn't you believe in re-animation of a corpse? Current human technology manages to re-animate dead people after a few minutes, you think the Creator of the Universe couldn't manage it? I just never get this argument.

And Christianity's initial spread was not through bad behavior. This is just a fact. Christians were persecuted and martyred all over the place, and Christianity still spread.

Do yourself a favor and learn more about this topic!

perhaps you should look in the mirror when you say that. Many, many people who are Christians -- including CHristan scholars -- believe the resurrection is a metaphor and think the resuscitation of a corpse is a simplistic way of perceiving the resurrection. But to each his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread exemplifies the reason why so many people are becoming either agnostic or atheists outright. The concept of Christianity to so many of its claimed practitioners is nothing more than an abstract concept, adjustable to the believer's whim from day to day.

It's probably always been that way, but people had to keep quiet about their beliefs for the hundreds of years that CHristianity was enforced under pain of death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

It's nice that a quote supportive of good Christians exists from the year 360. I suppose if you dug around a little you could find recoreds of really nasty things Christins did as well. Perhaps the early Christisn "led by example" but many good, upstanding Christians (e.g., during the inquisition) mercilessly tortured unbelievers.

As for "Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity" -- it depends how you define "belief." Many sophisticated Christians thrive by beliving in the metaphor of rebirth, not in actuality of the resusitation of a corpse.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

For one, the vast majority of Christian churches have a "creed" that is a statement of belief. Christ's death and resurrection is always part of that.

People who believe the resurrection is a metaphor are not Christians. They may be terribly sophisticated, I don't know or care. But they're not Christian.

And btw, if you believe in God, why wouldn't you believe in re-animation of a corpse? Current human technology manages to re-animate dead people after a few minutes, you think the Creator of the Universe couldn't manage it? I just never get this argument.

And Christianity's initial spread was not through bad behavior. This is just a fact. Christians were persecuted and martyred all over the place, and Christianity still spread.

Do yourself a favor and learn more about this topic!

perhaps you should look in the mirror when you say that. Many, many people who are Christians -- including CHristan scholars -- believe the resurrection is a metaphor and think the resuscitation of a corpse is a simplistic way of perceiving the resurrection. But to each his own.

To believe the Resurrection is a metaphor means you have to have near total ignorance of Scripture. No way can the Bible be read to support this view. Go ahead, try to show this citing actual Biblical reference to support this. It can't be done. If you want to deny it, deny it. Why resort to the Bible if you put no stock in what the Bible says. Just deny the Bible already. You are already referred to in 1 John 4, where it says if you deny the resurrection as a metaphor, you are of the anti-Christ. Why do people who already reject the Bible try to give weight to the Bible to show it doesn't say what it says? Oh, I know! It's because the Bible actually is the Word of God. Christ died for your sins, and He rose from the dead because He really is God. Anyone who says otherwise is not a Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
perhaps you should look in the mirror when you say that. Many, many people who are Christians -- including CHristan scholars -- believe the resurrection is a metaphor and think the resuscitation of a corpse is a simplistic way of perceiving the resurrection. But to each his own.

Maybe you are right! Maybe I need to learn more. Who are these "Christians" and "Christian scholars?" Name some names.

You might as well be saying that Christians believe in magical unicorns that grant wishes. You are just completely wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot judge an ideology or belief system based on its worst elements. This is the same as judging Islam based on ISIS adherents, or democracy based on Donald Trump.

Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity. Early Christians did not rely on threats or punishments to spread Christianity, they led by example.

Look at this quote from around AD 360:

Why do we not observe that it is their [the Christians’] benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead, and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [unbelief of the pagan gods]?… For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith to contribute to public service of this sort.

http://www.alanknox.net/2011/01/the-christians-support-not-only-their-own-poor-but-ours-as-well/

It's nice that a quote supportive of good Christians exists from the year 360. I suppose if you dug around a little you could find recoreds of really nasty things Christins did as well. Perhaps the early Christisn "led by example" but many good, upstanding Christians (e.g., during the inquisition) mercilessly tortured unbelievers.

As for "Belief in Jesus' death and resurrection is the core belief of Christianity" -- it depends how you define "belief." Many sophisticated Christians thrive by beliving in the metaphor of rebirth, not in actuality of the resusitation of a corpse.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

For one, the vast majority of Christian churches have a "creed" that is a statement of belief. Christ's death and resurrection is always part of that.

People who believe the resurrection is a metaphor are not Christians. They may be terribly sophisticated, I don't know or care. But they're not Christian.

And btw, if you believe in God, why wouldn't you believe in re-animation of a corpse? Current human technology manages to re-animate dead people after a few minutes, you think the Creator of the Universe couldn't manage it? I just never get this argument.

And Christianity's initial spread was not through bad behavior. This is just a fact. Christians were persecuted and martyred all over the place, and Christianity still spread.

Do yourself a favor and learn more about this topic!

perhaps you should look in the mirror when you say that. Many, many people who are Christians -- including CHristan scholars -- believe the resurrection is a metaphor and think the resuscitation of a corpse is a simplistic way of perceiving the resurrection. But to each his own.

To believe the Resurrection is a metaphor means you have to have near total ignorance of Scripture. No way can the Bible be read to support this view. Go ahead, try to show this citing actual Biblical reference to support this. It can't be done. If you want to deny it, deny it. Why resort to the Bible if you put no stock in what the Bible says. Just deny the Bible already. You are already referred to in 1 John 4, where it says if you deny the resurrection as a metaphor, you are of the anti-Christ. Why do people who already reject the Bible try to give weight to the Bible to show it doesn't say what it says? Oh, I know! It's because the Bible actually is the Word of God. Christ died for your sins, and He rose from the dead because He really is God. Anyone who says otherwise is not a Christian.

So you disagree with those scholars and practicing Christians who see the Bible in different way -- fine. They are wrong and you are right. Not only are they wrong, but they are "of the anti-Christ." There is only one way of see the Bible and it is YOUR way.

I suppose you see them as going to hell, but they don't see you that way. Good to know where you're coming from. Please keep in mind that this is not your church. It is a public message board that is open to all points of view.

[Anonymous]

Or maybe pp is an troll trying to make Christians look narrow-minded and exclusive.