Moving from belief in God, to belief in Jesus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

The book of Daniel foretells with stunning accuracy the rise and fall of nation states hundreds of years before those things happen. It's so accurate, that some scholars have claimed that it can't possibly be written when it is claimed to have been written. It seems odd that it would be so accurate about some things that can provably be said to have occurred, but then just make up some things as stories. To dismiss the book of Daniel is merely full of stories is to not seriously take it into account, and to wallow in willful ignorance.

Or, you can see God's handiwork in foretelling some things that He then authenticated so that you would take a foretelling of Christ seriously well, because your soul depends on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

That kooky Jesus. He must have read Isaiah and Daniel and, well, the whole Old Testament that is filled with prophecies of a coming Messiah -- so much so that Jews knew exactly when and where to look for him (see Matthew 2) -- really closely so that he could perform miracles such as creating food out of nothing, healing paralytics and blind people and raising people from the dead so that he could go and get himself crucified and die a horrific death and create some cult following that He never intended or made efforts to profit from. He sure put one over on us.

Oh wait. All that stuff about Jesus being real and being crucified never happened, right? Those kooky apostles. They make up a guy and a whole story about him because they know the Jews are looking for him, then go live selfless lives loving their neighbors without any thought for monetary gain or fame, just so they could get persecuted, beaten, chased all over the Middle East and in some cases horrifically martyred, all to propagate a story that they knew to be false. They sure put one over on us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

That kooky Jesus. He must have read Isaiah and Daniel and, well, the whole Old Testament that is filled with prophecies of a coming Messiah -- so much so that Jews knew exactly when and where to look for him (see Matthew 2) -- really closely so that he could perform miracles such as creating food out of nothing, healing paralytics and blind people and raising people from the dead so that he could go and get himself crucified and die a horrific death and create some cult following that He never intended or made efforts to profit from. He sure put one over on us.

Oh wait. All that stuff about Jesus being real and being crucified never happened, right? Those kooky apostles. They make up a guy and a whole story about him because they know the Jews are looking for him, then go live selfless lives loving their neighbors without any thought for monetary gain or fame, just so they could get persecuted, beaten, chased all over the Middle East and in some cases horrifically martyred, all to propagate a story that they knew to be false. They sure put one over on us.

There could have been real apostles and a real Jesus an still a bunch of made up stories about miracles that would really impress people and help to start a new religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

The book of Daniel foretells with stunning accuracy the rise and fall of nation states hundreds of years before those things happen. It's so accurate, that some scholars have claimed that it can't possibly be written when it is claimed to have been written. It seems odd that it would be so accurate about some things that can provably be said to have occurred, but then just make up some things as stories. To dismiss the book of Daniel is merely full of stories is to not seriously take it into account, and to wallow in willful ignorance.

Or, you can see God's handiwork in foretelling some things that He then authenticated so that you would take a foretelling of Christ seriously well, because your soul depends on it.

"Some Scholars" may not be so smart or maybe some pastor is telling stories about "some scholars" to try to convince people how true the Bible really is without referencing real scholars -- who have known for a long time that the Bible is an ancient book of stories.

Why does "foretelling" make Christ so special anyhow? You'd think walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine and rising from the dead would be enough to convince a lot of people - at least in the old pre-scientific days when people took magic more seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand what OP is going through.

You need to develop a relationship with Jesus.

A relationship requires getting to know someone, and talking to them. So you would read the Bible, and pray for guidance.

It's a journey for all of us, OP.

If Jesus is so important for our salvation, why is it so hard for some people to develop a relationship with him or to pray, and why do they have to to go on a journey? Some people just naturally believe in Jesus because they were taught from birth to do so and the teaching worked.

Others don't learn from their parents or can't quite make themselves believe that a guy who lived over 2,000 years ago died for them and they have to believe in him or else they will suffer in hell for ETERNITY. It seems like if Jesus really loved us he'd make it easier for all of us to believe in him.

Maybe he doesn't want all of us in heaven with him. Maybe it's crowded up there or he and his father and the holy spirit are not so welcoming and benevolent after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand what OP is going through.

You need to develop a relationship with Jesus.

A relationship requires getting to know someone, and talking to them. So you would read the Bible, and pray for guidance.

It's a journey for all of us, OP.

If Jesus is so important for our salvation, why is it so hard for some people to develop a relationship with him or to pray, and why do they have to to go on a journey? Some people just naturally believe in Jesus because they were taught from birth to do so and the teaching worked.

Others don't learn from their parents or can't quite make themselves believe that a guy who lived over 2,000 years ago died for them and they have to believe in him or else they will suffer in hell for ETERNITY. It seems like if Jesus really loved us he'd make it easier for all of us to believe in him.

Maybe he doesn't want all of us in heaven with him. Maybe it's crowded up there or he and his father and the holy spirit are not so welcoming and benevolent after all.

I don't actually agree with any of your premises.

It's not hard. It's like growing up, a progression. You have to put something into your spiritual life to get something out of it.
Nobody just "naturally believes in Jesus." Not anyone I've met at least.
There is very little known about "suffering in hell for eternity." There is very little detail in the bible about it. Nobody knows what hell is or if it exists as we understand it.
If you think that a god exists who doesn't care about you... good for you, I guess? I mean, why would you think that matters to anyone other than yourself?

I guess my question is, if you are living a good life without God, why are you debating people on the internet about it? Why do you think that your beliefs matter so much that you want to convince everyone that you are right? I honestly am not very concerned about what other people believe, as long as they are not hurting anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

I'm curious why you think the writer of Isaiah wrote the following, which is so clearly about Christ, more than 1,000 years before Christ was born:

"But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."
--Isaiah 53:6-7

Was that just some random nonsense that a group of men took up as the source of a hoax a thousand years later? And this hoax was so good that it has fooled billions of people for 2,000 years and influenced pretty much everything that has happened since?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

That kooky Jesus. He must have read Isaiah and Daniel and, well, the whole Old Testament that is filled with prophecies of a coming Messiah -- so much so that Jews knew exactly when and where to look for him (see Matthew 2) -- really closely so that he could perform miracles such as creating food out of nothing, healing paralytics and blind people and raising people from the dead so that he could go and get himself crucified and die a horrific death and create some cult following that He never intended or made efforts to profit from. He sure put one over on us.

Oh wait. All that stuff about Jesus being real and being crucified never happened, right? Those kooky apostles. They make up a guy and a whole story about him because they know the Jews are looking for him, then go live selfless lives loving their neighbors without any thought for monetary gain or fame, just so they could get persecuted, beaten, chased all over the Middle East and in some cases horrifically martyred, all to propagate a story that they knew to be false. They sure put one over on us.

There could have been real apostles and a real Jesus an still a bunch of made up stories about miracles that would really impress people and help to start a new religion.

But why would they lie about his death and resurrection? They sought neither fame, nor power, nor wealth, and they were severely persecuted to the point of death? Why be martyred for something you know you made up? Who does that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

In the more-progressive denominations, being Christian is about wanting to following the teachings of Jesus, whether or not you believe that he was literally the Son of God, immaculately conceived, and resurrected from death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

The book of Daniel foretells with stunning accuracy the rise and fall of nation states hundreds of years before those things happen. It's so accurate, that some scholars have claimed that it can't possibly be written when it is claimed to have been written. It seems odd that it would be so accurate about some things that can provably be said to have occurred, but then just make up some things as stories. To dismiss the book of Daniel is merely full of stories is to not seriously take it into account, and to wallow in willful ignorance.

Or, you can see God's handiwork in foretelling some things that He then authenticated so that you would take a foretelling of Christ seriously well, because your soul depends on it.

"Some Scholars" may not be so smart or maybe some pastor is telling stories about "some scholars" to try to convince people how true the Bible really is without referencing real scholars -- who have known for a long time that the Bible is an ancient book of stories.

Why does "foretelling" make Christ so special anyhow? You'd think walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine and rising from the dead would be enough to convince a lot of people - at least in the old pre-scientific days when people took magic more seriously.

You misread what I wrote. The Bible purports the Book of Daniel to have been written around 600 B.C. But it describes future events so accurately that "some scholars" claim it can only have been written after the fact. These scholars deny it's authenticity as a work of prophecy precisely because it's so accurate. And foretelling Christ is important for the same reason: If the Bible says Christ will be born at a certain time in a certain place and do certain things (such as heal the sick, die for your sins), it gives everything more weight. When you die, you won't be able to accuse the LORD of not giving you a chance. Your lack of belief will be your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

In the more-progressive denominations, being Christian is about wanting to following the teachings of Jesus, whether or not you believe that he was literally the Son of God, immaculately conceived, and resurrected from death.

Jesus taught that He was God in the flesh and that belief in Him was necessary for salvation. He also taught that you can't earn your way to Heaven by following the rules. How do you "follow the teachings of Jesus" if you throw those things out? He didn't come down to show you the way to live. He came to die for your sins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

In the more-progressive denominations, being Christian is about wanting to following the teachings of Jesus, whether or not you believe that he was literally the Son of God, immaculately conceived, and resurrected from death.

I don't think this is true. What denominations are these?

If you do not accept Jesus' resurrection, you are not Christian. Full stop. This is different than having some doubts. You can be a perfectly good, ethical person if you don't believe, but you are not Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I mean I believe in God, intuitively, and I feel drawn to a Christian church. But being a Christian requires believing written stories about someone from 2000 years ago. How to get there, is my question.

Read Isaiah. Add Daniel if you can. You will see how it all was foretold exactly as it happened. Where he would be from, etc.

Isaiah and Daniel are stories, not factual accounts. And it's pretty easy to write a sequel when the back story is already written.

Absolutely not true. If you knew anything at all about history and/or archeology, you'd know that Isaiah and Daniel were written long before the New Testament time period.

Yes, that is accurate history and archeology -- that's why it was so easy for people to write the Jesus stories later. They already knew just what "signs" to refer to, that would show that things were happening according to what had been prophesied.

That kooky Jesus. He must have read Isaiah and Daniel and, well, the whole Old Testament that is filled with prophecies of a coming Messiah -- so much so that Jews knew exactly when and where to look for him (see Matthew 2) -- really closely so that he could perform miracles such as creating food out of nothing, healing paralytics and blind people and raising people from the dead so that he could go and get himself crucified and die a horrific death and create some cult following that He never intended or made efforts to profit from. He sure put one over on us.

Oh wait. All that stuff about Jesus being real and being crucified never happened, right? Those kooky apostles. They make up a guy and a whole story about him because they know the Jews are looking for him, then go live selfless lives loving their neighbors without any thought for monetary gain or fame, just so they could get persecuted, beaten, chased all over the Middle East and in some cases horrifically martyred, all to propagate a story that they knew to be false. They sure put one over on us.

There could have been real apostles and a real Jesus an still a bunch of made up stories about miracles that would really impress people and help to start a new religion.

But why would they lie about his death and resurrection? They sought neither fame, nor power, nor wealth, and they were severely persecuted to the point of death? Why be martyred for something you know you made up? Who does that?

Maybe nobody lied about anything. Maybe it was a story from the start. There are several other ancient birth/death/resurrection stories that predate Jesus, so maybe the Jesus story, possibly based on a real person, was another iteration of it. That certainly makes more sense than to think those things actually happened.