Opting out of coast madness to live a low overhead life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

I can only speak to Austin, which is where I'm from. Housing costs are lower than they are here but one thing that many people I know moving to Austin from CA, East Coast, etc. have realized is that it's not nearly as low as you think. Especially to live where you want. And it's offset by the increased property taxes, etc. These people are mostly doctors, engineers, other professions, so their salaries are high and they still can't just buy whatever they want. Not to mention the people who think they're going to get some gorgeous home for like...$400K only to realize they're priced into some zero lot cookie cutter crap in the boonies or a house closer in that's in major need of updating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My parents left the DC area for a small town in a couple of hours away when my sister and I were in preschool. Having grown up there, you couldn't pay either of us enough to go back. Even though we lived there for over a dozen years, we always felt like outsiders - if your grandparents hadn't grown up in the town you were "new" and often "different" and that wasn't a good thing. Diversity was very limited (one Jewish family, no Muslims, a few Asian families) and the general mindset was that anything over a 30 minute drive away was a huge trip so virtually no one went to the nearest big city more than once a year, if that.

I am profoundly grateful that my father was transferred to a new city 30 years ago. The house they bough there for $215k was a stretch, but has more than tripled in value. The house that I grew up in was sold for $140k and in the past 30 years has increased in value to about $165k. The difference in real estate appreciation alone makes a huge difference for my parents' retirement. There are definite downsides to living in an expensive urban area, but there are upsides as well.

Ugh. I'll never understand where people get this idea that your options are living in SF/BOS/DC/NY/LA or some tiny town out in BFE where everyone knows each other/grew up there and never left, with nothing in between.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

I can only speak to Austin, which is where I'm from. Housing costs are lower than they are here but one thing that many people I know moving to Austin from CA, East Coast, etc. have realized is that it's not nearly as low as you think. Especially to live where you want. And it's offset by the increased property taxes, etc. These people are mostly doctors, engineers, other professions, so their salaries are high and they still can't just buy whatever they want. Not to mention the people who think they're going to get some gorgeous home for like...$400K only to realize they're priced into some zero lot cookie cutter crap in the boonies or a house closer in that's in major need of updating.

Yes, but compare apples to apples. It is possible to buy a house in a good school district for $400k in Austin. Look at all the posts in the real estate section on this blog in which people are laughing at people for asking if that's possible in the DC area. Is the nicest house in the nicest close in neighborhood $400k? No. But that zero lot line cookie cutter crap or house closer in that's in need of major updating would be $1 million (or more) here. Austin real estate is appreciating because people want to live there, but it's still not at coastal levels, yet. When I lived in Austin in the late 80's, you could buy a house for nothing, but the economy sucked. Everyone's looking for the perfect small city with cheap real estate, cultural amenities, great schools, and lovely climate. The problem is that when you find something even approaching that, everyone else does, too. Doesn't mean it's not a better deal than living here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a follow up to that Atlantic article that was discussed on here recently ("The Secret Shame of the Middle Class.") She's basically saying the author should have left the NYC area for a fly over state. Applies to us schmucks in DC too, I guess. What do you think?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/low-overhead-life/480612/

I haven't read this thread but I did read many of the Disqus comments to the Atlantic article and I recommend you do also. People made some good points that picked apart most of the article. I can summarize:

1) The author talks about living "surrounded by poverty" but Shaker Heights is an affluent suburb of Cleveland with a high median income and excellent schools.

2) The author briefly mentions that her parents are loaded but does not expand on how this has affected or will affect her life. In particular, she does not mention whether or not she is expecting a large inheritance. If she is, this would make her very relaxed about her retirement and would make it more psychologically comfortable to earn a low income.

3) The reason why the rust belt cities are cheap is partly because they are not blessed by world-class climate or geographical beauty, but mostly because the local economy is on a long downward slide with jobs and population both decreasing, and house prices falling or flat. Therefore, moving to the rust belt or deep south for a "low overhead life" is only feasible if you have one of the very few good jobs in the area (doctor at Clevelan Clinic, tenured professor at Case Western), or you have a work-from-anywhere job like the author. Both of these two types of jobs are exceedingly rare. Most people must: a) live where they work and b) work where they live.

So basically I think this article is about as helpful as the other Atlantic article: not very.

Idk. My in laws live in upstate NY. They all live in a nice inner city suburb with beautiful Tudor and craftsman houses dating from the 20s-40s that cost well under 500k. Schools are among the best in the state. They live near a major research university so neighbors tend to be politically liberal and well educated. Commutes are super short and hardly deserve the word. My BIL once let it slip to my DH that he makes well over 500k (way more than us here in DC). My MIL and FIL have a second home in the 1000 islands and my BIL and SIL are thinking about buying in the finger lakes area. They have a country club membership at a golf course considered to be one of the best in the country. There are lots of parks nearby if you like hiking and nature, a world class children's museum, a very good local symphony, lots of festivals in the summer. They often take off for the weekend and go skiing in the Adirondacks. Things that suck: winter if you hate the snow (which I personally don't) and high property taxes. But those taxes are partially what make the schools so good so they say it's hard to complain too much. I've been trying to get my DH to move back but he's a fed so he's reluctant to venture back into the private sector.

How's the ethnic food? How much diversity is there?

Better ethnic food than provincial, "bigger city" types might think:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/rocflavors/restaurant-reviews/

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/search/cheap%20eats/

Diversity is also strong in the close-in suburbs. Here's some info about the public high school in Brighton including a mention that approximately 28% of the student body is diverse):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_High_School_(Rochester,_New_York)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My parents left the DC area for a small town in a couple of hours away when my sister and I were in preschool. Having grown up there, you couldn't pay either of us enough to go back. Even though we lived there for over a dozen years, we always felt like outsiders - if your grandparents hadn't grown up in the town you were "new" and often "different" and that wasn't a good thing. Diversity was very limited (one Jewish family, no Muslims, a few Asian families) and the general mindset was that anything over a 30 minute drive away was a huge trip so virtually no one went to the nearest big city more than once a year, if that.

I am profoundly grateful that my father was transferred to a new city 30 years ago. The house they bough there for $215k was a stretch, but has more than tripled in value. The house that I grew up in was sold for $140k and in the past 30 years has increased in value to about $165k. The difference in real estate appreciation alone makes a huge difference for my parents' retirement. There are definite downsides to living in an expensive urban area, but there are upsides as well.

Ugh. I'll never understand where people get this idea that your options are living in SF/BOS/DC/NY/LA or some tiny town out in BFE where everyone knows each other/grew up there and never left, with nothing in between.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

I can only speak to Austin, which is where I'm from. Housing costs are lower than they are here but one thing that many people I know moving to Austin from CA, East Coast, etc. have realized is that it's not nearly as low as you think. Especially to live where you want. And it's offset by the increased property taxes, etc. These people are mostly doctors, engineers, other professions, so their salaries are high and they still can't just buy whatever they want. Not to mention the people who think they're going to get some gorgeous home for like...$400K only to realize they're priced into some zero lot cookie cutter crap in the boonies or a house closer in that's in major need of updating.

Yes, but compare apples to apples. It is possible to buy a house in a good school district for $400k in Austin. Look at all the posts in the real estate section on this blog in which people are laughing at people for asking if that's possible in the DC area. Is the nicest house in the nicest close in neighborhood $400k? No. But that zero lot line cookie cutter crap or house closer in that's in need of major updating would be $1 million (or more) here. Austin real estate is appreciating because people want to live there, but it's still not at coastal levels, yet. When I lived in Austin in the late 80's, you could buy a house for nothing, but the economy sucked. Everyone's looking for the perfect small city with cheap real estate, cultural amenities, great schools, and lovely climate. The problem is that when you find something even approaching that, everyone else does, too. Doesn't mean it's not a better deal than living here.

I haven't looked closely but I don't think Austin is that cheap. It might be somewhat cheaper on apples to apples basis vs DC area but not enough to be materially different enough to move based on cost of living. You can't compare suburbs of Austin to urban DC--you would have to compare Fairfax or Montgomery to Westlake, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

I think Austin & Boulder are somewhat cheaper but not by much. I would imagine generally liveable family homes in the more desirable neighborhoods with good schools you are definitely looking at $1m+ for Austin & Boulder. If you want a 4ksqft home in those neighborhoods you are probably looking at $2mish or more.

[Anonymous]

Are any of the posters considering such moves not white? It sounds really idyllic, but hard to imagine for someone who's not white to just up and move in Small Town USA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are any of the posters considering such moves not white? It sounds really idyllic, but hard to imagine for someone who's not white to just up and move in Small Town USA.

We keep telling you that we aren't talking about small towns exclusively. Why can't you grasp this?


Have you never set foot in San Antonio, St. Louis, Chicago or Phoenix? I'm guessing not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all about perspective and where you're coming from. Lots of NYC friends have opted out of the NYC/North Jersey/Long Island/CT madness and have settled here in DC and LOVE the cost of living, esp. real estate. But then I know DC folks who are moving off to Houston bc the DC COL is too much and they can get more house in Texas.

That's my husband, a NY to DC transplant.

+1.

Us, too. I miss how a lot of people I knew in NJ were somehow both high achieving and very unpretentious and down-to-earth, whereas in DC lots of people get pretentious at much lower levels of wealth and success and stressed out by what seem like smaller work issues. That said, our quality of life is much better here because work hours just aren't as crazy when the regional standard is set by Feds as when a lot of people's idea of hard work means I-banker hours. Even the same law firms in NYC and DC can have very different work cultures between the two offices even though pay is usually the same. It doesn't hurt that taxes are lower here, neither of us is stuck inhaling highway fumes in traffic on a driving commute, and we get to benefit from lots of free and accessible cultural opportunities in DC that would add another line item to our budget in NYC.

Curious as to where in NJ you lived. I grew up in a NYC suburb of NJ & there were tons of pretentious people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

All majority white cities. Diversity results in higher crime and whites self segregating themselves so housing prices go up.

Unless you consider Hispanics to be white, Austin is less white than NWDC & many of the close-in DC suburbs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

I think Austin & Boulder are somewhat cheaper but not by much. I would imagine generally liveable family homes in the more desirable neighborhoods with good schools you are definitely looking at $1m+ for Austin & Boulder. If you want a 4ksqft home in those neighborhoods you are probably looking at $2mish or more.

Austin is definitely getting more expensive & there are certainly neighborhoods where a family home will cost you $1m + but it still has some nice neighborhoods with good schools that are relatively close to downtown where you can get a 3 or 4 bedroom, 2k+ square foot house with a decent yard for $400-500k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boulder is not cheap. Denver area is on fire in terms of COL going up.
Austin has gotten more expensive and it's not easy to find jobs there...there are jobs but everyone wants to move there, so it's super competitive to land said jobs.
Houston also isn't as cheap as you'd think if you want to live in a nice neighborhood in Houston proper. The suburbs will give you a lot of house for your money -- some more than others -- but then you're dealing with the traffic. Bad traffic. DC bad, I'm not sure, but it's no picnic.
I tried to sell DH on Raleigh. He wasn't buying. He can get a job pretty much anywhere, but finding a job for me would be tough as I work in an industry that is dying pretty much everywhere, but has a lot of niche opportunities in the DC area.

I guess because I'm a DC native I don't get the fixation on how horrible the traffic is, and the cost is because of the unique, wonderful opportunities this area provides. My 80 year old dad, who lived here for 45 years, remarks on the traffic every time he visits from his third tier town. Sure, I can see the traffic bothering an elderly man, but for young or middle aged people, what is this such a fixation? You just plan for it.

Because it fucking sucks to spend your precious time on earth that way and it increases stress and decreases health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boulder is not cheap. Denver area is on fire in terms of COL going up.
Austin has gotten more expensive and it's not easy to find jobs there...there are jobs but everyone wants to move there, so it's super competitive to land said jobs.
Houston also isn't as cheap as you'd think if you want to live in a nice neighborhood in Houston proper. The suburbs will give you a lot of house for your money -- some more than others -- but then you're dealing with the traffic. Bad traffic. DC bad, I'm not sure, but it's no picnic.
I tried to sell DH on Raleigh. He wasn't buying. He can get a job pretty much anywhere, but finding a job for me would be tough as I work in an industry that is dying pretty much everywhere, but has a lot of niche opportunities in the DC area.

I guess because I'm a DC native I don't get the fixation on how horrible the traffic is, and the cost is because of the unique, wonderful opportunities this area provides. My 80 year old dad, who lived here for 45 years, remarks on the traffic every time he visits from his third tier town. Sure, I can see the traffic bothering an elderly man, but for young or middle aged people, what is this such a fixation? You just plan for it.

Because sometimes it is nice to do fun things spontaneously. You can't do that here.

Traffic is a problem is a waste of time for everyone. But it is especially hard on young kids. What do you do when your baby poops and you are stuck in traffic on 495?

And it isn't just the traffic. Every fun place is always crowded. All the "unique, wonderful opportunities" aren't nearly so enjoyable when there are 5 million people trying to enjoy them at the same time as you. The demand is much higher than the supply for pretty much all resources in DC.

Yes to this. I really do like many things about the DC area, but I didn't grow up here and I still remember what it was like to browse in a store without 4 or 5 people reaching around me, elbowing me away from the racks, a line at the register. I remember going to museums and wandering around and looking at what I wanted to look at for as long as a I wanted without being rushed through, waiting in line, or being so crowded I couldn't see or move. I remember being able to park places without a strategy worthy of a general going into battle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boulder is not cheap. Denver area is on fire in terms of COL going up.
Austin has gotten more expensive and it's not easy to find jobs there...there are jobs but everyone wants to move there, so it's super competitive to land said jobs.
Houston also isn't as cheap as you'd think if you want to live in a nice neighborhood in Houston proper. The suburbs will give you a lot of house for your money -- some more than others -- but then you're dealing with the traffic. Bad traffic. DC bad, I'm not sure, but it's no picnic.
I tried to sell DH on Raleigh. He wasn't buying. He can get a job pretty much anywhere, but finding a job for me would be tough as I work in an industry that is dying pretty much everywhere, but has a lot of niche opportunities in the DC area.

I guess because I'm a DC native I don't get the fixation on how horrible the traffic is, and the cost is because of the unique, wonderful opportunities this area provides. My 80 year old dad, who lived here for 45 years, remarks on the traffic every time he visits from his third tier town. Sure, I can see the traffic bothering an elderly man, but for young or middle aged people, what is this such a fixation? You just plan for it.

Because sometimes it is nice to do fun things spontaneously. You can't do that here.

Traffic is a problem is a waste of time for everyone. But it is especially hard on young kids. What do you do when your baby poops and you are stuck in traffic on 495?

And it isn't just the traffic. Every fun place is always crowded. All the "unique, wonderful opportunities" aren't nearly so enjoyable when there are 5 million people trying to enjoy them at the same time as you. The demand is much higher than the supply for pretty much all resources in DC.

Yes to this. I really do like many things about the DC area, but I didn't grow up here and I still remember what it was like to browse in a store without 4 or 5 people reaching around me, elbowing me away from the racks, a line at the register. I remember going to museums and wandering around and looking at what I wanted to look at for as long as a I wanted without being rushed through, waiting in line, or being so crowded I couldn't see or move. I remember being able to park places without a strategy worthy of a general going into battle.

Preach!