ILs seethe at our son's occasional bad behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think being rude or a spoiled brat has anything to do with it.

Think about the exchange in terms of game strategy, OP. Your child chose to defect, rather than cooperate (PPs, replace "brat" with "defector" to understand my point). This is a presumably repeat-player scenario, meaning your child knows he will keep going to the dinner table, and will keep interacting with you and the ILs. So why was there so little incentive for him to cooperate among repeat players, especially since kids would like to do nothing more than receive positive attention of the adults that they are dependent on?

That's the real issue, and it's not going to be solved by yelling at him how rude he is being, or demanding he eat whatever is served to him, or ratcheting up the punishing consequences, like PPs have suggested you ought to do. You solve it by developing a relationship where he can trust that his needs will be known, respected, considered, and met often enough over time by caregivers, and therefore he becomes willing to cooperate in repeat player scenarios like this one, especially if it's important to you. The alternative to that is giving up that hope, defecting to try to meet whatever his current need is in whatever (usually sub-optimal) way he is capable of, and incurring whatever consequences may come of that defection, including being yelled at or punished.

My childhood was lived that second way, but it had nothing to do with being spoiled -- it's the opposite of spoiled, actually.

.

This is an interesting post PP. But surely every wish cannot be respected considered and consistently met. There are many demands a child can make that are unpractical, illogical and simply not feasible. How does that fit into your framework. Say, you have 3 children and each one demands a different thing for every single meal. What's your strategy then? If you can't cajole cooperation and the child's behavior is outside of socially accepted norms? And further, if you can go along with your child's unreasonable demands, what does it do in the long run? In terms DC fitting in with other children, or as a young adult, in terms of relationship with you - when you need help or consideration, how is your teenager to understand what it all means if that was never impressed upon them?

[Anonymous]

Tell your in-laws to knock it off or stop visiting. Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think being rude or a spoiled brat has anything to do with it.

Think about the exchange in terms of game strategy, OP. Your child chose to defect, rather than cooperate (PPs, replace "brat" with "defector" to understand my point). This is a presumably repeat-player scenario, meaning your child knows he will keep going to the dinner table, and will keep interacting with you and the ILs. So why was there so little incentive for him to cooperate among repeat players, especially since kids would like to do nothing more than receive positive attention of the adults that they are dependent on?

That's the real issue, and it's not going to be solved by yelling at him how rude he is being, or demanding he eat whatever is served to him, or ratcheting up the punishing consequences, like PPs have suggested you ought to do. You solve it by developing a relationship where he can trust that his needs will be known, respected, considered, and met often enough over time by caregivers, and therefore he becomes willing to cooperate in repeat player scenarios like this one, especially if it's important to you. The alternative to that is giving up that hope, defecting to try to meet whatever his current need is in whatever (usually sub-optimal) way he is capable of, and incurring whatever consequences may come of that defection, including being yelled at or punished.

My childhood was lived that second way, but it had nothing to do with being spoiled -- it's the opposite of spoiled, actually.

.

This is an interesting post PP. But surely every wish cannot be respected considered and consistently met. There are many demands a child can make that are unpractical, illogical and simply not feasible. How does that fit into your framework. Say, you have 3 children and each one demands a different thing for every single meal. What's your strategy then? If you can't cajole cooperation and the child's behavior is outside of socially accepted norms? And further, if you can go along with your child's unreasonable demands, what does it do in the long run? In terms DC fitting in with other children, or as a young adult, in terms of relationship with you - when you need help or consideration, how is your teenager to understand what it all means if that was never impressed upon them?

My point was not about wish fulfillment -- instead, I was trying to explain a reason for the child's behavior. PPs only gave reasons like, "he's a brat" or "he's spoiled" or "he's unsocialized." I was trying to suggest a reason that was a little more constructive then these, but I wasn't suggesting a course of action (like make/don't make sandwiches) because any course of action is a bit besides the larger point.

So, in your example of three surly children each demanding butterscotch candy, rump roast and white-only food at a meal, I would suggest doing something other than launching into a tirade about what spoiled brats they are and escalating from there if they try to do anything other than eat the dinner you made them. Instead, I would ask myself hmmmm, why are they drawing such a line in the sand over this? What has driven them to pass up the opportunity to please me (which is the default for anyone who finds himself relatively powerless and dependent on another human being) and instead provoke me, irrespective of the consequences, including the very painful (to a young child) consequence of being disapproved of or rejected by one's own family?

There's nothing new age about this line of inquiry -- if anything, I'm parroting the findings from attachment theory studies from the 1950s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

"As children move into the school years at about six years old, most develop a goal-corrected partnership with parents, in which each partner is willing to compromise in order to maintain a gratifying relationship."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think being rude or a spoiled brat has anything to do with it.

Think about the exchange in terms of game strategy, OP. Your child chose to defect, rather than cooperate (PPs, replace "brat" with "defector" to understand my point). This is a presumably repeat-player scenario, meaning your child knows he will keep going to the dinner table, and will keep interacting with you and the ILs. So why was there so little incentive for him to cooperate among repeat players, especially since kids would like to do nothing more than receive positive attention of the adults that they are dependent on?

That's the real issue, and it's not going to be solved by yelling at him how rude he is being, or demanding he eat whatever is served to him, or ratcheting up the punishing consequences, like PPs have suggested you ought to do. You solve it by developing a relationship where he can trust that his needs will be known, respected, considered, and met often enough over time by caregivers, and therefore he becomes willing to cooperate in repeat player scenarios like this one, especially if it's important to you. The alternative to that is giving up that hope, defecting to try to meet whatever his current need is in whatever (usually sub-optimal) way he is capable of, and incurring whatever consequences may come of that defection, including being yelled at or punished.

My childhood was lived that second way, but it had nothing to do with being spoiled -- it's the opposite of spoiled, actually.

.

This is an interesting post PP. But surely every wish cannot be respected considered and consistently met. There are many demands a child can make that are unpractical, illogical and simply not feasible. How does that fit into your framework. Say, you have 3 children and each one demands a different thing for every single meal. What's your strategy then? If you can't cajole cooperation and the child's behavior is outside of socially accepted norms? And further, if you can go along with your child's unreasonable demands, what does it do in the long run? In terms DC fitting in with other children, or as a young adult, in terms of relationship with you - when you need help or consideration, how is your teenager to understand what it all means if that was never impressed upon them?

My point was not about wish fulfillment -- instead, I was trying to explain a reason for the child's behavior. PPs only gave reasons like, "he's a brat" or "he's spoiled" or "he's unsocialized." I was trying to suggest a reason that was a little more constructive then these, but I wasn't suggesting a course of action (like make/don't make sandwiches) because any course of action is a bit besides the larger point.

So, in your example of three surly children each demanding butterscotch candy, rump roast and white-only food at a meal, I would suggest doing something other than launching into a tirade about what spoiled brats they are and escalating from there if they try to do anything other than eat the dinner you made them. Instead, I would ask myself hmmmm, why are they drawing such a line in the sand over this? What has driven them to pass up the opportunity to please me (which is the default for anyone who finds himself relatively powerless and dependent on another human being) and instead provoke me, irrespective of the consequences, including the very painful (to a young child) consequence of being disapproved of or rejected by one's own family?

There's nothing new age about this line of inquiry -- if anything, I'm parroting the findings from attachment theory studies from the 1950s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

"As children move into the school years at about six years old, most develop a goal-corrected partnership with parents, in which each partner is willing to compromise in order to maintain a gratifying relationship."

Nobody said anything about saying a tirade at the dinner table. So what would you do in that situation? Say your child is doing it because nobody ever told him that it's impolite.

[Anonymous]

Weird all the people on here who grew up dining with the vanderbilts. The pearl clutching is hysterical. My in laws take all their meals in front of the TV, like real Americans.