failed the bar 3x...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why anyone would take on that sort of student loan debt without a really solid plan, no way is domone from a third tier law school getting a big law job unless they are at the very top of their class, and without this plan or some way to get loan forgiveness that's just crushing debt. I realize it's too late to change this person's situation, however let this be a cautionary tale to others.

I'm in total agreement with you on this.

[Anonymous]

If it has anything to do with law then she need not apply. She's demonstrated that she is not a good fit in that field.

[Anonymous]

I'd probably join the peace corp in her situation

[Anonymous]

Government contracting or patent examining could be good options.

[Anonymous]

If she joins the military, can she get loan forgiveness?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:my niece has failed the bar 3 x... 2x in new york and 1x in massachusetts. she has been unemployed since law school graduation in 2013. any advice on what to make of this/what she should do? should she still even try to practice law? she went to a bad law school and has huge debt.

I failed 4 including the other states. It's a mind / confidence now. She knows more law now than any attorney practicing. I guarantee it!

Are you serious? Memorizing legal tests is not the same as knowing the law. And I would never hire an attorney that I knew had failed the bar multiple times. Once can be bad luck or a bad day, but it is absolutely a lack of intelligence after multiple fails.

Are you a lawyer? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Yes, and I'm on the hiring committee at an AmLaw 100 firm. I'm telling you that your niece is not going to make it as a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

OP, if you're employed, why not have your niece apply to work with your organization?

Those loans aren't going away anytime soon and she needs a job at this point even if it's only being a secretary or something along those lines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[quote=Anonymous]I once heard Massechusetts referred to as Passechusetts. .

I've never heard that but I've taken both the CA and Mass. bar exams. CA was three days and very tough. Mass. was one day and a walk in the park.

I call BS. I have taken and passed both. MA is actually 2 days, as you would know if you'd taken it.

The third day made the CA exam more grueling, but the CA essays and MA essays were comparable in terms of difficulty.

+1

And learn how to spell it.


Disagree. There's a big difference between the CA and the Mass. bar (which was only one day back when I took it). CA would test you on the 17th exception to the mailbox rule but Mass. would test just on the mailbox rule. I kept thinking "there's got to be a trick question in here somewhere". CA purposefully wants to keep lawyers from coming into the state so makes the bar very tough, as does VA with its never-ending CLE requirements. Also CA allows or used to allow "reading" candidates who never went to law school but studied in a law office under a lawyer's tutelage for two years to take the test. That allowance harkens back to prioneer days when students couldn't get to a local law school. Calif. also has a for-profit law school allowance. Anyone who can pony up the money can go to law school. Those graduates often have great difficulty passing the California bar. I don't know if that still exists but it was crushing for many students to spend more than three years paying and studying in a for-profit and then not be able to pass the CA bar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[quote=Anonymous]I once heard Massechusetts referred to as Passechusetts. .

I've never heard that but I've taken both the CA and Mass. bar exams. CA was three days and very tough. Mass. was one day and a walk in the park.

I call BS. I have taken and passed both. MA is actually 2 days, as you would know if you'd taken it.

The third day made the CA exam more grueling, but the CA essays and MA essays were comparable in terms of difficulty.

+1

And learn how to spell it.

Disagree. There's a big difference between the CA and the Mass. bar (which was only one day back when I took it). CA would test you on the 17th exception to the mailbox rule but Mass. would test just on the mailbox rule. I kept thinking "there's got to be a trick question in here somewhere". CA purposefully wants to keep lawyers from coming into the state so makes the bar very tough, as does VA with its never-ending CLE requirements. Also CA allows or used to allow "reading" candidates who never went to law school but studied in a law office under a lawyer's tutelage for two years to take the test. That allowance harkens back to prioneer days when students couldn't get to a local law school. Calif. also has a for-profit law school allowance. Anyone who can pony up the money can go to law school. Those graduates often have great difficulty passing the California bar. I don't know if that still exists but it was crushing for many students to spend more than three years paying and studying in a for-profit and then not be able to pass the CA bar.



PP here who also took and passed both. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and perhaps the exams were very different when you took them. (I am curious, how long ago was the MA bar just one day?) I disagree that CA is fundamentally harder. Time consuming, yes, but not harder. I took the MA bar first then CA six months later, studying part time at night after working all day. There so much hype about the CA bar exam, but it is overblown. When you control for graduates of non-ABA accredited schools, the bar pass rate is not that different from other states.

[Anonymous]

Her parents are going to end up having to bail her out with the loans. Plain and simple.
Either through free housing or paying her rent, giving her and old car, and putting her on their cell phone bill.
I know 2 people whose parents are supporting them like that, and I may be one of the only ones who knows. Both lawyers who passed the bar but cannot service their debt and, well, live.
Neither parent could truly afford it, but at the point what are the options?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am related to someone that failed the bar 7 times before passing it. He now has his own law firm. Please let her pursue her dream without passing judgment.

If it's really her dream the I agree. She can find a way to make it happen. It's unclear if this relative of OPs possesses the drive to do this, though.

I agree with this. Also, I passed the CPA exam, which people which I have always heard is tougher than the bar. I was not wiz kid in accounting and tax courses, which leads to my next point. These are not IQ tests. The people who pass KNOW HOW TO TAKE THE TEST, period. Like most things in life, it is a system. Know the system, pass the exam. I would recommend her finding the best possible tutor, focus, and get over the hurdle if that is her motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: In most cases it's probably due to anxiety.

No, in most cases it is because their IQ is just too low and now there are law schools any 90 IQ knuckle-dragger can get into. Since you think most people's problem with failing the BAR is "anxiety," I'd guess you're a simpleton as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am related to someone that failed the bar 7 times before passing it. He now has his own law firm. Please let her pursue her dream without passing judgment.

2 of my neighbors could not pass the bar in DC. One took it twice, the other 3 times.
One works for a private law firm, the other for the library of Congress. Both make close to 100 K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: In most cases it's probably due to anxiety.

No, in most cases it is because their IQ is just too low and now there are law schools any 90 IQ knuckle-dragger can get into. Since you think most people's problem with failing the BAR is "anxiety," I'd guess you're a simpleton as well.

My, aren't you charming? You may passed the bar, but you clearly failed the interpersonal skills and empathy exam. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

It's funny how someone had to fail something, and make a mistake, for the world to get Apple, Google, and Facebook.

OP, have a good sit-down with your niece, tell her find what truly makes her happy and motivated, and tell her pursue that. The rest will fall into place.

We can't all fit into defined career structures so we should define new ones.

She should listen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA