failed the bar 3x...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can she go into patent law? The USPTO comes to mind, though I have heard people complain the work is not exciting.

What? Patent lawyers have to pass the bar AND the patent bar, which is technical and hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can she go into patent law? The USPTO comes to mind, though I have heard people complain the work is not exciting.

What? Patent lawyers have to pass the bar AND the patent bar, which is technical and hard.

And have science/engineering degrees in addition to their JDs. Ridiculous suggestion from a clueless person.

[Anonymous]

Maybe an entry level government job, somewhere like the GAO or the IRS. I think it's hard because in an interview they'll ask what she's been doing the past year and also if she has passed the bar. Maybe she needs to see a career coach for some advice on how to answer these questions.

[Anonymous]

Even Vincent Gambini passed the bar in NY.

[Anonymous]

It seems like a lot of people responding have no clue about the legal market today, or the bar exam. I'm sorry, if she has failed the bar three times, she does not have what it takes to be a lawyer. Either she does not study enough, or she can't retain information, or she has crippling anxiety. To be a competent attorney you need to be at least somewhat diligent, able to retain information, and able to handle stress. Otherwise you are not competent to represent clients. The good news is there are lots of other jobs she may be great at and she is young, so she should start looking in a different field ASAP. I would advise starting very low and working her way up - entry level sales, admin - her employment history is going to require that she not aim high. She is not getting hired as a fed or a public school teacher - many qualified candidates can't get those jobs. And her odds of getting any sort of job in law are minuscule - the market is very hard now for people with even good experience who have passed the bar. She should remove law school from her resume, go to a mall, and try and get a job in retail. Once she has done that for a year or two she may be able to move up, or find a more sophisticated sales job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems like a lot of people responding have no clue about the legal market today, or the bar exam. I'm sorry, if she has failed the bar three times, she does not have what it takes to be a lawyer. Either she does not study enough, or she can't retain information, or she has crippling anxiety. To be a competent attorney you need to be at least somewhat diligent, able to retain information, and able to handle stress. Otherwise you are not competent to represent clients. The good news is there are lots of other jobs she may be great at and she is young, so she should start looking in a different field ASAP. I would advise starting very low and working her way up - entry level sales, admin - her employment history is going to require that she not aim high. She is not getting hired as a fed or a public school teacher - many qualified candidates can't get those jobs. And her odds of getting any sort of job in law are minuscule - the market is very hard now for people with even good experience who have passed the bar. She should remove law school from her resume, go to a mall, and try and get a job in retail. Once she has done that for a year or two she may be able to move up, or find a more sophisticated sales job.

With respect to teaching, it depends on what and where she is willing or able to teach (says this lawyer and former teacher, who is quite familiar with job markets for both, as well as the bar exam, thanks). No, she's not getting a job teaching AP English at a W school... but if she's willing to teach emotionally disturbed special ed kids in the inner city, there's not a lot of competition for that (because it's a terrible job, but it's something to consider if she's desperate).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can she get certified to teach public school? If she goes through an alternative certification program, they will pay for the classes she needs to get certified, so she doesn't need to take out more loans. Many school districts will count her law degree as a doctorate for teacher salary purposes, and every district in the DC area has a bunch of teachers with JDs. Plus, she would eventually qualify for loan forgiveness.

I've only seen the for emotional/behavioral disability programs, are there others?

Perhaps she should research this herself? Yes, there are others. OP, what was her undergrad major?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe an entry level government job, somewhere like the GAO or the IRS. I think it's hard because in an interview they'll ask what she's been doing the past year and also if she has passed the bar. Maybe she needs to see a career coach for some advice on how to answer these questions.

Really? So long as she doesn't say failing bar she's fine. She can say temping while searching for a policy job.
She should also try working on the hill. Maybe go work for a lady presidential candidate. Learn a lot and meet a lot of folks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My BIL who went to Thomas M. Cooley (and flunked out once and still paid to go back and finish), which is the lowest ranked school, took and passed the New Mexico bar exam on DH's advice and works as a public defender in some town nobody would ever want to live in.

So if she really wants to be a lawyer, it's possible, but it's probably not worth it.

I went to Cooley (Western Michigan now!), and I work as an attorney for a federal agency in DC. Many Cooley grads are employeed in this area.

OP's niece should look for a federal government position as a non attorney, then look to transition over after she has experience. My agency has attorneys working as HR specialist and contract specialist. These subject areas are good training to be a labor counselor or acquisition attorney. I know a FOIA specialist who is a law school grad with no bar. She could get her fed loans forgiven in 10 years and her payments would be low considering the salary.

I recommend she take the DC bar. I know many people who couldn't pass other bars, but they could pass DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can she go into patent law? The USPTO comes to mind, though I have heard people complain the work is not exciting.

Do you know anything about patent law? You know there's a patent bar to take for that, and it's much harder than the regular bar? And that the work is often highly scientific? Someone who went to a shitty law school and can't pass the bar after multiple tries isn't going to get into patent work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My BIL who went to Thomas M. Cooley (and flunked out once and still paid to go back and finish), which is the lowest ranked school, took and passed the New Mexico bar exam on DH's advice and works as a public defender in some town nobody would ever want to live in.

So if she really wants to be a lawyer, it's possible, but it's probably not worth it.

I went to Cooley (Western Michigan now!), and I work as an attorney for a federal agency in DC. Many Cooley grads are employeed in this area.

OP's niece should look for a federal government position as a non attorney, then look to transition over after she has experience. My agency has attorneys working as HR specialist and contract specialist. These subject areas are good training to be a labor counselor or acquisition attorney. I know a FOIA specialist who is a law school grad with no bar. She could get her fed loans forgiven in 10 years and her payments would be low considering the salary.

I recommend she take the DC bar. I know many people who couldn't pass other bars, but they could pass DC.

Federal contracting jobs are no piece of cake. You have to know your stuff, and many positions want you to come in with some contract training and/or experience. A certified contract administrator ($$) has to pass a very difficult exam.

We hired a law school grad who didn't pass the bar as an entry level, temporary paralegal (didn't have enough experience to be a contract administrator), in our commercial office. The other paralegals ran circles around the JD. Needless to say, we did not renew her contract, and won't be hiring JDs to work as non-attorneys again.

This is a very competitive area. She will be up against experience, plus education no matter what career path she takes.

[Anonymous]

All right, let me weigh in. OP, I'm a 2014 graduate from a law school ranked between 40-60. Don't assume either my law school or job are in DC, not saying either way.

I failed the bar exam last summer (two months after graduation), but passed this time in February after studying my ass off, unemployed in my parents house with my loans deferred due to unemployment. Now I know it looks like my situation doesn't relate to your niece's but I know a lot about the job market, the bar exam, and our generation of law students so maybe my perspective can help.

1) Are her loans in unemployment deferment or are they delinquent/in default? Her priority right now should be to start making SOME payment on them. She can't get a legal job and it will be very hard to get a government job of any kind because all state governments are kinda broke and the federal government is not only broke but generally very selective (otherwise ten years in a govt gig and her loans would be forgiven).

She needs to start working in any capacity first - McDonald's, tutoring, substitute teaching at a local school, something that will both fill that gap in her resume and enable her to make at least $200/month payments on her loans.

2) Start networking with small practices. Local little law firms that do insurance defense and represent landlords in housing court. Since she's female she needs to make sure she looks her most attractive (I'm not kidding), psych herself up to feel temporarily confident, and do coffee and lunch meetings with these people to win them over to her personality and her story (and her looks will help). They need to know and like her.

3) It's possible to pass the bar after failing a lot, and New York is hard. MA is less difficult but the Passachusetts comments in here are unnecessarily snarky and mean. You think this poor girl isn't aware of that and using that thought to make herself feel worse? I know what it's like to fail the bar - it feels like shit. You go on Facebook and see all your friends celebrating their results, getting sworn in, starting work as real lawyers, and you just want to go away and die.

It's not the hours she puts in the studying (though at this point I'd recommend putting in the crazy 500 hours that BarBri recommends) but how much she gets out of it. Tell her to analyze her essays closely, and then go back and really kill the MBE. The MBE is the easiest place to gain points, it's very much an objective test of black letter law recollection. Memorization, understanding the application of the law, and reading comprehension high enough to notice the MBE's tricks are the only skills you need, and the MBE has the same questions no matter what state you're in.

Essay grading varies by state unfortunately, as does the law, so she really needs to read what her graders said about her essays.

And the MPT component is just a gimme - easiest place to rack up points on the bar exam, whether you're in a mega-tough state like California or in an easy state like Mississippi.

She can do this. People from third-tier law schools outside the Top 100 pass the bar; she can too. It will happen. But first she needs to get ANY job to start paying off her debt even at the most low amount possible, and network.

Which brings me to...

4) Contrary to conventional wisdom, which you're getting on this thread (which is not bad as a rule), you can get a decently paying legal job out of a lower-ranked law school with shit grades and bar exam failure under your belt. It happens a LOT more frequently than the conventional wisdom says. At least in my generation of law students it does. We have repeatedly noticed that "40% of the class gets into law firms" does not mean "the top 40% gets into law firms".

I'm a good example. I was below median at my 40-60 ranked law school, I failed the bar once, and I don't have family connections. Oh, and I have $200,000+ in debt. But now that I've passed the bar I have an interview with a great local firm lined up and they pay the market rate in my city, which means I'll be able to live comfortably and pay down my debt.

It only happened because I spent this past year, even before I found out in October 2014 that I failed the bar, networking. I met lawyers for coffee dates and told them my story. I made them like me enough to introduce me to other people, and then got to volunteer pro bono with someone through that and prove my abilities while studying for the bar. The interview I have now is through one of those lawyers I kept having coffee with and talking to this past year.

If I can do it, your niece definitely can!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I once heard Massechusetts referred to as Passechusetts. .

I sat for the MA bar in 2006 and heard the same thing. Look at the stats - pass rate for first time law school grads is very high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I once heard Massechusetts referred to as Passechusetts. .

I sat for the MA bar in 2006 and heard the same thing. Look at the stats - pass rate for first time law school grads is very high.

Wrong. Not that different from many other states:
http://www.ncbex.org/dmsdocument/145

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. I think she likes law and would like to be a lawyer. She has about 300k in loans from undergrad and law school. She is running in to trouble becuase she has no real skill set for which people will hire her and a huge gap in her resume. I think she would eagerly do the contracts or compliance for a company or the government but I don't think she could get one of those jobs. She can't even seem to get doc review jobs. She lives in DC with her parents who support her but aren't wealthy so can't pay off her loans and don't have connections for her.

She needs to get a federal government job ASAP. Get into the public loan forgiveness program. Use the income continent repayment option which should be very low (maybe even 0) if she starts at a gs 9 or lower. 10 years and the fed loans are forgiven.

Does she not need to join the military first before getting first dibs on the fed gov jobs?