Jews and Germans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's hypothesis was that there was something different about Germany that made antisemitism flourish there in as murderous way. I don't necessarily agree with this hypothesis, as a lot of historians have criticized his methodology. However, he asks whether one can envision everyday Danes or Italians participating in the Holocaust the way Germans did. The fact that I can't envision that makes me want to do more research on this topic.

Under the right conditions, any majority group will participate in the type of behavior the Germans engaged in. Stanley Milgram's research and Phillip Zimbardo's research show this pretty convincingly. Even Americans, who have a highly individualistic culture, will do things like that. (Just look at what happened at the prisons on Iraq for more evidence.)

Germans weren't special. They were humans. They were in desperate political and economic straights and they turned to political leaders who were charismatic, evil men. It can happen anywhere. The identity of the scapegoat will be different, but it could happen here.

Uhhhhh.. No comparison

The impulse and behavior are the same of those prison guards is the same as the behavior of SS guards at Nazi camps, even if the scale isn't. Germans aren't any different than Americans when given power over a scape-goated enemy.

This is a human impulse and one that Americans are currently caught up in. In the wake of 911, Americans as a people have embraced a number of fascist political strategies. We support the use of torture (waterboarding, stress positions, etc.) against our "enemies." We support the use of indefinite detention at Gitmo by a majority. We support the extrajudicial murder of American citizens by drones by a majority. We support the use of extraordinary rendition so that our allies can torture people for us. We support the use of widespread domestic spying to ensure domestic security. We supported the invasion of Iraq, which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis, including children, on the basis of a manufactured excuse by our leaders.

Americans who stand up against these actions by our government are called "un-American" and "commies" and "enemies of the state."

All we needed was a few leaders who were willling to send Muslims to camps and we would have been right there with the Nazis, shipping them off.

We held Africans in slavery, we engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing with Indian Removal policies, we practice Jim Crow and segregation, and we sent Japanese Americans to detention camps.

There is nothing special about Germans. It's the dark side of human nature to lean towards facism when threatened and desperate.

10:55 here. Well said. I agree, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we move on to current events, perhaps?

Current events are the result of past events. Surely you understand that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish and have several friends who are at least part German.

Interesting and strange tidbit-I remember my parents saying the German Jews consider themselves classier and smarter than the Jews from other parts and they sometimes snub other Jews or something like that. There was this ranking of sorts-German Jews considered themselves at the top then Russian Jews, etc then Sephardic from various places. I know, it's inane and senseless. My parents werr of Russian Jewish decent.

Your parents are correct. Look at the membership of any temple in New York

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pop-quiz: Do you geniuses all know that Germany as a unified state is much younger than the U.S.? Also, that there are plenty of Ethnic Germans in Europe, like my great-great grandmother, who never lived within the borders of what became Germany? Finally, where do our history books cover the ethnic cleansing of between 2 - 2.5 million ethnic Germans, many of whom were never citizens of Germany, from their historic communities in Eastern Europe and the former USSR between 1945 -1950?

Know that. Also know that the current British royal family through Elizabeth is German. They had to change the name if t heir dynasty during Workd War I because it was Germanic. During the same period the king of England refused to allow his German cousin who was Czar of Russia to take refuge in England because he did not want to emphasize his German heritage. The Czar and his family were killed. Lots of bad history swirling through present day Europe based on Germany

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So strange to judge a current population for the sins of their past. I understand that the Holocaust was horrific. But, there are many people now that had no role in that. Germany is also far from the only country who has committed atrocities (we don't have to look much further than the U.S. where we all reside? Do you have the same views about the U.S.?)

One of my very best friends is Jewish. We've talked about this and she won't go to Germany, won't buy German cars, etc. I just think this is odd. One thing to harbor such feelings toward an actual nazi/nazi sympathizer. This is something I just don't get.

I live in a very Jewish enclave and have Jewish friends. This has come up before and many have shared similar sentiments. Although I understand and sympathize with why they feel that way, I wonder if such perceptions will generally fade away as the actual participants die out just from old age. The war ended 68 years ago. Soon enough even the children involved will pass away from old age. At some point it will be more like how Americans view slavery no?

maybe it has to do with the fact that many german companies were complicit in the holocaust? i would not want to buy a product and support a company built on that history.

Complicit as in the Benz company built the ovens for the concentration camps.

[Anonymous]

Eugenics - made in California
http://hnn.us/article/1796

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So strange to judge a current population for the sins of their past. I understand that the Holocaust was horrific. But, there are many people now that had no role in that. Germany is also far from the only country who has committed atrocities (we don't have to look much further than the U.S. where we all reside? Do you have the same views about the U.S.?)

One of my very best friends is Jewish. We've talked about this and she won't go to Germany, won't buy German cars, etc. I just think this is odd. One thing to harbor such feelings toward an actual nazi/nazi sympathizer. This is something I just don't get.

I live in a very Jewish enclave and have Jewish friends. This has come up before and many have shared similar sentiments. Although I understand and sympathize with why they feel that way, I wonder if such perceptions will generally fade away as the actual participants die out just from old age. The war ended 68 years ago. Soon enough even the children involved will pass away from old age. At some point it will be more like how Americans view slavery no?

maybe it has to do with the fact that many german companies were complicit in the holocaust? i would not want to buy a product and support a company built on that history.

Complicit as in the Benz company built the ovens for the concentration camps.

Many people would be surprised by the companies complicit in the Holocaust (as in top executives knew what was going on in the camps and used slave labor in their production lines): Volkswagon is the most famous one ("the people's car" - the Beetle was actually named by Hitler) but also Bayer, Siemens, Kodak, Chase Bank, IBM, etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eugenics - made in California
http://hnn.us/article/1796

Not just California. Eugenics laws were popular in the US and widespread in the South. The test case for forced sterilizations is out of Virginia.

Cold Springs Harbor, New York was a major research center with major ties both to policy centers in Nazi Germany and in the US.
https://library.missouri.edu/exhibits/eugenics/laughlin.htm

The head of Cold Springs, Harry Laughlin, taught at Truman State University in Missouri (then First District Normal School) before accepting a position at Cold Springs.
http://library.truman.edu/manuscripts/laughlinbio.asp

Eugenics was taught at Harvard, Columbia, Cornell, Brown and many state flagship universities.
http://library.missouri.edu/exhibits/eugenics/mizzou.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

Each of Israel's major "land grabs" have occurred under provocation. They were attacked and were legitimately defending themselves. Very different from what went on in Germany in the 30s. It's a very biased and prejudiced reading to say otherwise. Now the current problems with the settlements...I would tend to agree that those fall more under the category of "land grab." However, the expansion of these communities often follow terrorist attacks on the part of Palestinians so it's hard to say that they're *completely* unjustified. They definitely don't help the situation though, I agree with that.

As far as the creation of Israel, I don't know I'm kind of torn. I think it's too easy with hindsight to say "well they should have known this would happen." Is it really so unreasonable to expect people of different religions or ethnicities to be able to live together peacefully in the modern world? I mean, with hindsight, it obviously is but that is a very unfortunate conclusion to have to draw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

Each of Israel's major "land grabs" have occurred under provocation. They were attacked and were legitimately defending themselves. Very different from what went on in Germany in the 30s. It's a very biased and prejudiced reading to say otherwise. Now the current problems with the settlements...I would tend to agree that those fall more under the category of "land grab." However, the expansion of these communities often follow terrorist attacks on the part of Palestinians so it's hard to say that they're *completely* unjustified. They definitely don't help the situation though, I agree with that.

As far as the creation of Israel, I don't know I'm kind of torn. I think it's too easy with hindsight to say "well they should have known this would happen." Is it really so unreasonable to expect people of different religions or ethnicities to be able to live together peacefully in the modern world? I mean, with hindsight, it obviously is but that is a very unfortunate conclusion to have to draw.

Why didn't the Jews originally have their own homeland? How did the UN decide to give that particular spot to them? Were the Palestinians okay with it when the UN made the decision?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

who cares about provocation?

Each of Israel's major "land grabs" have occurred under provocation. They were attacked and were legitimately defending themselves. Very different from what went on in Germany in the 30s. It's a very biased and prejudiced reading to say otherwise. Now the current problems with the settlements...I would tend to agree that those fall more under the category of "land grab." However, the expansion of these communities often follow terrorist attacks on the part of Palestinians so it's hard to say that they're *completely* unjustified. They definitely don't help the situation though, I agree with that.

As far as the creation of Israel, I don't know I'm kind of torn. I think it's too easy with hindsight to say "well they should have known this would happen." Is it really so unreasonable to expect people of different religions or ethnicities to be able to live together peacefully in the modern world? I mean, with hindsight, it obviously is but that is a very unfortunate conclusion to have to draw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

Each of Israel's major "land grabs" have occurred under provocation. They were attacked and were legitimately defending themselves. Very different from what went on in Germany in the 30s. It's a very biased and prejudiced reading to say otherwise. Now the current problems with the settlements...I would tend to agree that those fall more under the category of "land grab." However, the expansion of these communities often follow terrorist attacks on the part of Palestinians so it's hard to say that they're *completely* unjustified. They definitely don't help the situation though, I agree with that.

As far as the creation of Israel, I don't know I'm kind of torn. I think it's too easy with hindsight to say "well they should have known this would happen." Is it really so unreasonable to expect people of different religions or ethnicities to be able to live together peacefully in the modern world? I mean, with hindsight, it obviously is but that is a very unfortunate conclusion to have to draw.

And that's when we stop sympathizing with you. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the Jews have done to everyone in the Middle East is unforgivable. They have destabilized an entire region in one big land grab

Jews didn't grab the land. While they did so later in Israel's history, initially, the UN gave the land to them.

The Nazis exterminated millions of Jews during WW II, but then when the war was over, many Jews who tried to go home were ordered to go away and/or murdered by members of their communities. As many of you know, this wasn't a new development. Jews have been discriminated against, and worse, for centuries. The UN's decision was motivated by a pragmatic understanding that Jews would continue to experience ill treatment because, despite vows and assertions to the contrary, the global community did not really learn the kind of meaningful lessons necessary to stop this abuse. The UN's decision to give Jews their own country represented an avoidant solution. As long as Jews had their own country, the global community didn't have to confront the root causes for the centuries-old discrimination. Sadly, the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and anti-Semitism's recent rise in Europe, suggests that avoidant solutions aren't always good solutions.

The land that was given to the Jews was taken from the Palestinians. The land the Israelis continue to take is from the Palestinians. That UN sanctioned land grab created the destabilization of the Middle East and has resulted in the terrorism of today. You know like the Je wish terrorists that forced the UN to take Palestinian land for Israel The avoidant solution may have had a better chance of success if the Israelis had not decided to expand their original territories. You know the way the Germans did in the 1939s and 1940s.

who cares about provocation?
Each of Israel's major "land grabs" have occurred under provocation. They were attacked and were legitimately defending themselves. Very different from what went on in Germany in the 30s. It's a very biased and prejudiced reading to say otherwise. Now the current problems with the settlements...I would tend to agree that those fall more under the category of "land grab." However, the expansion of these communities often follow terrorist attacks on the part of Palestinians so it's hard to say that they're *completely* unjustified. They definitely don't help the situation though, I agree with that.

[/b]As far as the creation of Israel, I don't know I'm kind of torn. I think it's too easy with hindsight to say "well they should have known this would happen." Is it really so unreasonable to expect people of different religions or ethnicities to be able to live together peacefully in the modern world? I mean, with hindsight, it obviously is but that is a very unfortunate conclusion to have to draw[b].

Yes it is unfortunate the people who have their land stolen just don't know how to get along.

[Anonymous]

I blame the Romans.