Bad News for Test Prep Parents

[Anonymous]

^^^^
PP here; don't know why it came out like that, but I wrote the last paragraph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
...
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.

This is what I disagree with: the notion that not prepping puts the kids at a disadvantage. The only place where prepping for the CogAT/FxAT matters in in AAP admissions. First, there is little evidence that AAP is significantly better than general education. In fact, in some places, larger class size might make the education worse. Second, there is no evidence that test prep helps AAP admissions. Near as I can tell, for scores near the in pool cutoff from the old CogAT (120-140), kids get in mostly based on the GBRS. If CogAT was really important, my DD would not be in AAP.

Prep if you want. But I think 1) you should be honest about it (tell the school), and 2) there are probably better use of the time.

If you don't think AAP is any better than gen ed, then why do you care if people prep? If people are dumb enough to waste time and money on something that gets them nothing and disadvantages no one, then no biggies, prep, don't prep, everyone gets the same anyway. And why would Fairfax County want useless info about prepping when it doesn't really affect anyone anyway? Wouldn't spending time giving useless information be a waste of valuable time? There must be some better use for that time. There also must be better use of your time than telling people to report themselves for engaging in entirely benign activities that disadvantage no one.

I did not say I did not think it is better, I said there is limited evidence that it is better. I was DD in AAP because the peer group is better. As she is now approaching middle school, I want her to have friends that want to get the work done, and do well.

As for reporting themselves, all I am saying is if you don't think you are cheating, tell the school. If you think your are cheating, you are damaging your children's ethical health, as you are telling them it is ok to break rules to get ahead. Breaking the rules to get a head lead to the current economic crisis; it lead to ENRON, it ls causing the PED scandals in sports.

I with the county would come out at specifically state the position on test prep. They indicate that it is not likely. They could come out with a statement: The FxAT is designed to be taken without preparation; preparation does not allow the county to measure what they are trying to measure, and is considered cheating.

My problem with test prep is that it skews the results. It does nothing more that improve the scores -- not the intelligence of the child, but the score on the CogAT/FxAT.

At this point, I think the test prep problem (starting a few years ago) has gotten to the point where the score is meaningless, and the county should give up on the concept of an objective measure based on the CogAT/FxAT, as it is no longer objective. It is becoming Garbage In Garbage out.

You say you don't think that not prepping disadvantages the kids who don't prep, but then you say prepping skews the results. How can both of those things be correct? If prepping skews the results by giving preppers higher scores, then obviously from a statistical perspective it affects the unprepped kids in an adverse way. Maybe you should reread the post you are disagreeing with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

....

Definitely true at our center. So many kids have been "bumped up" to AAP over the past year (due to parent appeals), that the GE classes have dwindled significantly. It's really becoming ridiculous that AAP kids now far outnumber GE in our 4th grade. Anyone who appeals can get their child in, making AAP pretty much meaningless for the kids who are at the highest end of the spectrum, and making GE very unappealing for the others. Several kids at our school have left for privates, rather than get stuck in GE where up to a third of the class are special needs. I thought GE was where the majority of kids were supposed to be educated. Something is very skewed with the current system.

Who told you that anyone who appeals can get their kids in? I know many parents (especially this year) who did not manage to "get their kids in" on appeal. In my DS's school (Center), the appeals round generated only a handful of new entries (single-digit), and those few who made it in on appeal had fantastic WISC scores. The ones who had just good WISC scores, stayed at GE. Actually, the AAPRT herself told us that the kids who get in on appeal usually do better at AAP than the ones who get in during the first round, because the appeals kids are doubled-screened (NNAT/CogAT plus WISC). Without a great WISC score no one makes it on appeal. So, it's not the appeals that overcrowd the AAP classes, it's the helicopter parents who work the teachers to get their kids high GBRSs and usually make it in the first round. For the record, DS made it in the first round with good scores and decent GBRS, but his best friend, a highly talented boy with high scores but low GBRS, had to submit a stellar WISC to get in. According to DS, his friend's now doing much better than anyone else in his class...

Actually PP it is my experience with 4 siblings with families within FCPS (yes, we are one of those big, stay put families) that the majority of the parents who appeal DO get their kids in. Between all of us combined with the people we know there is evidence of this fully. Countless examples of successful parent appeals over the years. AAP is not nearly the academically exclusive program that it was in my day regardless of what it was called then and is called now.

[Anonymous]

One problem with Fairfax County not explicitly saying that prepping is considered cheating but instead saying there are no materials for prepping for the test is that there is a huge segment of fcps parents who've never been on this forum and so know nothing about why prepping is considered cheating. They are used to studying for tests being viewed as allowed. If they do a search and find the test materials, they could reasonably think that the fcps site just is outdated since it just says no materials are available. Are you going to punish those kids? FCPS has no standing to complain about prepping until it explicitly says prepping is unethical/cheating and putting that on it's website and also sending home materials to that effect starting in kindergarten. If anyone in the fcps administration is reading this thread, would you mind explaining the rationale for not doing this?

[Anonymous]

Since the Cogat is normed just for Fairfax students, a percentage inflating their score through prepping does bring down the "natural" percentage of the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

....

Definitely true at our center. So many kids have been "bumped up" to AAP over the past year (due to parent appeals), that the GE classes have dwindled significantly. It's really becoming ridiculous that AAP kids now far outnumber GE in our 4th grade. Anyone who appeals can get their child in, making AAP pretty much meaningless for the kids who are at the highest end of the spectrum, and making GE very unappealing for the others. Several kids at our school have left for privates, rather than get stuck in GE where up to a third of the class are special needs. I thought GE was where the majority of kids were supposed to be educated. Something is very skewed with the current system.

Who told you that anyone who appeals can get their kids in? I know many parents (especially this year) who did not manage to "get their kids in" on appeal. In my DS's school (Center), the appeals round generated only a handful of new entries (single-digit), and those few who made it in on appeal had fantastic WISC scores. The ones who had just good WISC scores, stayed at GE. Actually, the AAPRT herself told us that the kids who get in on appeal usually do better at AAP than the ones who get in during the first round, because the appeals kids are doubled-screened (NNAT/CogAT plus WISC). Without a great WISC score no one makes it on appeal. So, it's not the appeals that overcrowd the AAP classes, it's the helicopter parents who work the teachers to get their kids high GBRSs and usually make it in the first round. For the record, DS made it in the first round with good scores and decent GBRS, but his best friend, a highly talented boy with high scores but low GBRS, had to submit a stellar WISC to get in. According to DS, his friend's now doing much better than anyone else in his class...

Actually PP it is my experience with 4 siblings with families within FCPS (yes, we are one of those big, stay put families) that the majority of the parents who appeal DO get their kids in. Between all of us combined with the people we know there is evidence of this fully. Countless examples of successful parent appeals over the years. AAP is not nearly the academically exclusive program that it was in my day regardless of what it was called then and is called now.

Those who actually appeal are usually the ones with a strong WISC to submit. Those who even shell out $400 for their child to take the WISC are the ones with a strong conviction and reason to believe that their child will do well. If the child has always been average in school, and with average NNAT and CogAT, why would parents bother with the time and expense? The appealers are a self-selected group. Parents who took their child for a WISC and learned FSIQ was 115 probably did not advertise the fact or send the scores in.

[Anonymous]

PP, let's not forget that those who appeal with WISC are also those who (a) know they can use the WISC and (b) can afford the WISC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, let's not forget that those who appeal with WISC are also those who (a) know they can use the WISC and (b) can afford the WISC.

That would suggest only that some who might be qualified don't appeal to get in, so not everyone who could possibly be included is included. I'm sure that is true. But it doesn't suggest in any way that those who do appeal aren't a self-selected group with strong files to put forward in their appeal, making it not surprising that their appeals succeed a high percentage of the time. I have read it quoted on DCUM that appeals with WISC succeed 70% of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One problem with Fairfax County not explicitly saying that prepping is considered cheating but instead saying there are no materials for prepping for the test is that there is a huge segment of fcps parents who've never been on this forum and so know nothing about why prepping is considered cheating. They are used to studying for tests being viewed as allowed. If they do a search and find the test materials, they could reasonably think that the fcps site just is outdated since it just says no materials are available. Are you going to punish those kids? FCPS has no standing to complain about prepping until it explicitly says prepping is unethical/cheating and putting that on it's website and also sending home materials to that effect starting in kindergarten. If anyone in the fcps administration is reading this thread, would you mind explaining the rationale for not doing this?

I agree that some people prepping their kids are just oblivious and doing what they think is right. Our neighbor, who I hardly know, casually told me at the bus stop that her husband was prepping their DC for the Naglieri using a sample booklet that he ordered. We talk only at the bus stop and usually about the weather. We talked about how it was getting colder then about how the school year was going, and she mentioned the prepping. She wasn't confiding any secret to me but just chatting innocently about how their DC was doing in first grade. I didn't have the heart to bring up that what their family was doing could be considered cheating, and after all there is no official statement to this effect that I could point to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, let's not forget that those who appeal with WISC are also those who (a) know they can use the WISC and (b) can afford the WISC.

George Mason will do the test at a greatly reduced price (or possibly for free?) for those who cannot afford it, so affordability is not an issue for the WISC.
Also, the denial letter includes information on how to appeal which, at least in the past, included GMU's website address.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
...
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.

This is what I disagree with: the notion that not prepping puts the kids at a disadvantage. The only place where prepping for the CogAT/FxAT matters in in AAP admissions. First, there is little evidence that AAP is significantly better than general education. In fact, in some places, larger class size might make the education worse. Second, there is no evidence that test prep helps AAP admissions. Near as I can tell, for scores near the in pool cutoff from the old CogAT (120-140), kids get in mostly based on the GBRS. If CogAT was really important, my DD would not be in AAP.

Prep if you want. But I think 1) you should be honest about it (tell the school), and 2) there are probably better use of the time.

If you don't think AAP is any better than gen ed, then why do you care if people prep? If people are dumb enough to waste time and money on something that gets them nothing and disadvantages no one, then no biggies, prep, don't prep, everyone gets the same anyway. And why would Fairfax County want useless info about prepping when it doesn't really affect anyone anyway? Wouldn't spending time giving useless information be a waste of valuable time? There must be some better use for that time. There also must be better use of your time than telling people to report themselves for engaging in entirely benign activities that disadvantage no one.

I did not say I did not think it is better, I said there is limited evidence that it is better. I was DD in AAP because the peer group is better. As she is now approaching middle school, I want her to have friends that want to get the work done, and do well.

As for reporting themselves, all I am saying is if you don't think you are cheating, tell the school. If you think your are cheating, you are damaging your children's ethical health, as you are telling them it is ok to break rules to get ahead. Breaking the rules to get a head lead to the current economic crisis; it lead to ENRON, it ls causing the PED scandals in sports.

I with the county would come out at specifically state the position on test prep. They indicate that it is not likely. They could come out with a statement: The FxAT is designed to be taken without preparation; preparation does not allow the county to measure what they are trying to measure, and is considered cheating.

My problem with test prep is that it skews the results. It does nothing more that improve the scores -- not the intelligence of the child, but the score on the CogAT/FxAT.

At this point, I think the test prep problem (starting a few years ago) has gotten to the point where the score is meaningless, and the county should give up on the concept of an objective measure based on the CogAT/FxAT, as it is no longer objective. It is becoming Garbage In Garbage out.

You say you don't think that not prepping disadvantages the kids who don't prep, but then you say prepping skews the results. How can both of those things be correct? If prepping skews the results by giving preppers higher scores, then obviously from a statistical perspective it affects the unprepped kids in an adverse way. Maybe you should reread the post you are disagreeing with.

The results are skewed and it does not matter. Why? Because the county so down-weights the CogAT/FxAT compared with the GBRS.

[Anonymous]

The results are skewed and it does not matter. Why? Because the county so down-weights the CogAT/FxAT compared with the GBRS.

Are you saying that you think the county is paying less attention to the test scores because of parents prepping their kids in advance?

[Anonymous]

I am a second grade teacher in FCPS. My experience is that a high NNAT and especially CoGat/Fxat trumps the GBRS. I have seen kids with 140 on either and GBRS of 5-7 get in and kids with scores on CoGat of 130 and GBRS of 14 not get in. In fact, in 10 years I have not seen a child who scored 140 or higher not get in regardless of GBRs and lukewarm teacher commentary or lack of work samples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The results are skewed and it does not matter. Why? Because the county so down-weights the CogAT/FxAT compared with the GBRS.

Are you saying that you think the county is paying less attention to the test scores because of parents prepping their kids in advance?

Yes. That is what I am saying

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a second grade teacher in FCPS. My experience is that a high NNAT and especially CoGat/Fxat trumps the GBRS. I have seen kids with 140 on either and GBRS of 5-7 get in and kids with scores on CoGat of 130 and GBRS of 14 not get in. In fact, in 10 years I have not seen a child who scored 140 or higher not get in regardless of GBRs and lukewarm teacher commentary or lack of work samples.

Do these kids get in during the first round or on appeal? My niece had 142 in NNAT, and I think 95% in FxAT but a GBRS of 8 and did not get in initially. Her parents appealed with a WISC of 140 and she got in.