Big College Admissions Year at St. Albans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The college counselors at schools (StA's is in that bunch) would call us practically begging on some of the students, but we can always tell who is at the bottom of a class. Selective schools get somewhat snobby when independent schools try to push their bottom third on them and usually WL or flat out deny those students. For example, a school like Davidson may WL StA's top boy bc they know he is a double Harvard legacy and his record is Strong enough to get in, so he isn't coming to Davidson. It isnt worth wasting an admit on that student. Then, they admit the kid in the middle third who is strong and has expressed high interest. When the kid in the bottom third applies, they have to deny him since they did not admit the top boy. Even if they need another boy, they will take him from another school at that point so that decisions seem somewhat consistent within a single school community.

If I had a child who was average, by the standards of a school like StA, I would send him elsewhere. Probably public, because it is not worth the cost if the child won't even end up at a top school. Save the money to give to the child for graduate school.

This is really interesting, thanks. We're going through the admissions process right now. I suppose another question is, if a kid can make the top 3rd at StA's, this kid would probably also be in the top 3rd at public (and I realize the top kids at public schools like Whitman, Potomac, TJ et cetera are very strong too). So this again begs the question of whether private is worth it *iff* your main criteria is college acceptance (flame protection: I'm not agreeing that's the only reason for private). So in this case, I would imaging the kid in the top 3rd at public is out to sea with an admissions person who doesn't know who he is, while the kid in StA's top 3rd has a school counselor who is calling Cornell on his behalf.

[Anonymous]

PP ask lots of questions of the school counselor and don't make any assumptions that they're making those calls or about anything else during the admissions process just because it's a top private school. Read as much info on the college admissions process as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The college counselors at schools (StA's is in that bunch) would call us practically begging on some of the students, but we can always tell who is at the bottom of a class. Selective schools get somewhat snobby when independent schools try to push their bottom third on them and usually WL or flat out deny those students. For example, a school like Davidson may WL StA's top boy bc they know he is a double Harvard legacy and his record is Strong enough to get in, so he isn't coming to Davidson. It isnt worth wasting an admit on that student. Then, they admit the kid in the middle third who is strong and has expressed high interest. When the kid in the bottom third applies, they have to deny him since they did not admit the top boy. Even if they need another boy, they will take him from another school at that point so that decisions seem somewhat consistent within a single school community.

If I had a child who was average, by the standards of a school like StA, I would send him elsewhere. Probably public, because it is not worth the cost if the child won't even end up at a top school. Save the money to give to the child for graduate school.

This is really interesting, thanks. We're going through the admissions process right now. I suppose another question is, if a kid can make the top 3rd at StA's, this kid would probably also be in the top 3rd at public (and I realize the top kids at public schools like Whitman, Potomac, TJ et cetera are very strong too). So this again begs the question of whether private is worth it *iff* your main criteria is college acceptance (flame protection: I'm not agreeing that's the only reason for private). So in this case, I would imaging the kid in the top 3rd at public is out to sea with an admissions person who doesn't know who he is, while the kid in StA's top 3rd has a school counselor who is calling Cornell on his behalf.

Based upon my experience with Walls students, this is true. The college counselors at the top privates in this area work really hard to get their kids into the colleges that are appropriate for them--networking with college admissions officers, making calls, tailoring letters, reviewing apps, making sure the appropriate tests are taken on time, etc. The students at even the best public schools, if Walls is any indicator, don't receive nearly as much attention from their college counselors. Very sad. Unless a Walls student has a parent who is going to do the leg work, s/he is outta luck.

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP who was an admissions counselor. The students at small privates definitely get more attention and shepherding through the process than students at larger publics often get. A PP brings up a great point, a student who is going to be top off the top at a school like StA is likely going to be at the top at a good public as well. Those students fare just as well in admissions as long as the rest of the record is strong (scores, resume etc).

The thing about the extra attention - if the student is weak, getting a pleading call from a counselor did not sway me or my colleagues often. It is actually a topic that comes up regularly over drinks at professional conferences and such. My peers at other like schools felt the same way about private school counselors.

Where the pleading DID come into play successfully was with wait list students who were full pays. A call from a counselor at that point saying that student X will enroll and withdraw his application for aid because they can pay full freight, now that can tip a student from WL to admit. But the WL is a whole different ball game.

[Anonymous]

PP College Counselor, you have a lot of good advice and insight. Would you start an "ask me anything" type of thread or one that talks more about MOC and the WL game?

[Anonymous]

I'm also a former admissions staffer at a top SLAC (small world, PP) and a 3-time veteran of the college application process as a parent. While I would agree with much of what the other former admissions staffer says -- e.g., the middle of the class benefits most from the college counseling services offered by many independent schools, parents need to inform themselves and ask questions of college counselors -- I would hesitate to describe independent school counselors as hand-holding families through the application process. Independent school counselors do a great service to the applicants by coordinating the flow of transcripts and recommendations -- a service that public schools cannot offer due to the number of students. Similarly, independent school counselors can write more detailed and nuanced school recommendation letters for students -- again because of class size as well as the availability of detailed teacher reports. In our experience (at a "Big 3" school), however, the counselors did not provide much help at all on essays, nor, more fundamentally on developing a list of colleges to visit or, ultimately, to apply to. Perhaps that's not the case at every independent school, but that's what we found.

[Anonymous]

For the two people with college admissions experience, I'm wondering if you could explain further a comment I've seen in your posts. I see you both saying the (roughly) top third of the high school class will be very strong students, so they do not need much help from the college counselor, and will get into top colleges regardless. That makes sense to me as a general matter. But I'm wondering whether an effective college counselor helps even those top-third students with admissions. Let's say we agree any top-third students is strong enough to get admitted to a top-40 college, even without any help at all from the college counselor. But will an effective college counselor be able to increase the odds those top-third students are get admitted to their top choices among those colleges, and even to top-15 programs? Or are you instead suggesting that college counselors are only minimally relevant for top-third high school students? TIA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm also a former admissions staffer at a top SLAC (small world, PP) and a 3-time veteran of the college application process as a parent. While I would agree with much of what the other former admissions staffer says -- e.g., the middle of the class benefits most from the college counseling services offered by many independent schools, parents need to inform themselves and ask questions of college counselors -- I would hesitate to describe independent school counselors as hand-holding families through the application process. Independent school counselors do a great service to the applicants by coordinating the flow of transcripts and recommendations -- a service that public schools cannot offer due to the number of students. Similarly, independent school counselors can write more detailed and nuanced school recommendation letters for students -- again because of class size as well as the availability of detailed teacher reports. In our experience (at a "Big 3" school), however, the counselors did not provide much help at all on essays, nor, more fundamentally on developing a list of colleges to visit or, ultimately, to apply to. Perhaps that's not the case at every independent school, but that's what we found.

"Parents need to inform themselves and ask questions of college counselors."

After going through NCS' college application process, I completely agree. Basically all my DD's counselor did was coordinated submitting transcripts and recs. There were no special calls to schools. DD learned during a meeting that her counselor hadn't placed any followup calls on her behalf and was asked if she had received any emails/feedback from her schools. We figured that we were on our own, it was around January at this point. Fortunately, my DD was in the top third of her class. We did a lot of the footwork ourselves, she was accepted at her first choice school.

[Anonymous]

Does it help to hire a private college counselor?

[Anonymous]

so the parents are on the hook for another $500,000 ?

[Anonymous]

And why is TJ relevant? Private school admissions are much more relative. TJ operates on a truly meritorious selection process. They don't care who your parents are or how much they earn.

[Anonymous]

How do you know if your in the top third? Is there really any way to tell between bottom of the top third and top of the second third?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you know if your in the top third? Is there really any way to tell between bottom of the top third and top of the second third?

First former counselor poster here. Independent schools do their best to hide class rank. At selective schools, we are lucky enough that many of your students from one class apply. If the school won't release the rank info, we basically rank the students based on the grades of the applicants from that school, look at profile and applicant grades From that school in previous years and call the counselors to lean on them for more precise info to rank the students. They usually give us some clues so that we have a pretty good picture of where your child stands in the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm also a former admissions staffer at a top SLAC (small world, PP) and a 3-time veteran of the college application process as a parent. While I would agree with much of what the other former admissions staffer says -- e.g., the middle of the class benefits most from the college counseling services offered by many independent schools, parents need to inform themselves and ask questions of college counselors -- I would hesitate to describe independent school counselors as hand-holding families through the application process. Independent school counselors do a great service to the applicants by coordinating the flow of transcripts and recommendations -- a service that public schools cannot offer due to the number of students. Similarly, independent school counselors can write more detailed and nuanced school recommendation letters for students -- again because of class size as well as the availability of detailed teacher reports. In our experience (at a "Big 3" school), however, the counselors did not provide much help at all on essays, nor, more fundamentally on developing a list of colleges to visit or, ultimately, to apply to. Perhaps that's not the case at every independent school, but that's what we found.

"Parents need to inform themselves and ask questions of college counselors."

After going through NCS' college application process, I completely agree. Basically all my DD's counselor did was coordinated submitting transcripts and recs. There were no special calls to schools. DD learned during a meeting that her counselor hadn't placed any followup calls on her behalf and was asked if she had received any emails/feedback from her schools. We figured that we were on our own, it was around January at this point. Fortunately, my DD was in the top third of her class. We did a lot of the footwork ourselves, she was accepted at her first choice school.

Counselors play triage. Your DD didn't need the support because that counselor was likely certain that she would get in on her own. No need to waste chits on her. The counselor saved them for other students. Not necessarily fair, but your DD was fine.

[Anonymous]

Is it true some some NCS parents hire private college counselor to help select colleges, courses, extracurriculars, sports, volunteering, and SAT prep as early as 9th grade?