Tangential Spin-Off from Kitchen Pass thread: " I'm not a feminist"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do they feel "pushed out"? Crappy childcare or unsupportive husband? My kids are both upper elementary school age, and I don't understand why juggling kids and work would make a parent feel pushed out. Unless you mean they aren't committed to work anymore.

This is what I don't understand. All because your individual experience as a WOHM hasn't made you feel "pushed out", you can't understand how that happens to other women? You surely lack an understanding of what else is going on around you if you feel that way.

I'm a lawyer at a big law firm and I can tell you that married women with children (and quite frankly, ALL women) do NOT get the same opportunities as the male attorneys and are not promoted to the same extent. We can always point to some explanation as to why this is happening. I have heard it explained by my firm as women "self-selecting" out. Which is complete BS. Sure...*some* women self-select out of partnership race, but does that really explain why female partners account for only 10% of the total partnership, when female associates ranks are closer to 50% (and for YEARS there have been more female first year associates than male)???? No...we are not all self-selecting out. We simply are NOT given the same opportunities to succeed. We don't have the same access to clients. We don't get the same mentoring. Yes, we have additional demands when you look at child care, etc. But it is more than that.

To say that the answer is that we "aren't committed to work anymore" is truly ignorant.

So you're saying it's up or out? I don't think that's true of many jobs other than law firm associate.

[Anonymous]

I am the poster that first used the term pushed out of the workforce. I was meaning it in a very specific way - referring to the book "Opting Out?" I think it's called which was written to show that Lisa Belkin's opt out revolution was a myth, and that what was happening is that some women (and please note I said SOME and not ALL) are not opting out of the workforce but rather feel pushed out, because of unflexible policies, husbands who don't want to miss a beat in their careers so don't help with sick days, pediatrician appointments, etc.

I have a few SAHM friends who have told me if there job was more flexible, they thought they actually work reasonable hours, and their husband's career was not so intense, they'd have stayed in the workforce. They aren't bitching about it or blaming anyone, just acknowledging that. Obviously this only applies to women who have a choice in the matter.

I don't think any company should bend over backwards for working parents but in general I'm glad to see that many companies are shifting to recognizing that life happens outside of work. Between the two of us (my husband and I) we have onsite employer-based daycare, flex time, and the ability to take off for a sick kid or doctor appointment without feeling like we are going to get fired. And it's across the board flexibility, not just rolling out the red carpet for working parents. People I've worked with have done school part time and needed to leave early to get to class, have had to take care of their own serious health issues, etc. and they are also given flexiblity. If this were more the norm for both men and women I think at least a small percentage of women who stay home would stay in. I got to go back to a reduced schedule for a couple of years after the birth of my first and that really helped me want to stay in the workforce (though we really do depend on my income).

So that is what I meant by pushed out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well I consider myself somewhat feminist, but here's how I have viewed the topic since I wrote my senior thesis for my history degree on the changes that occurred between WWI and WWII that enabled so many women to go to work during WWII when they hadn't during WWI. (This was a few years ago.) Anyway what I have observed is that women want equal rights and all of that...which is GREAT....but in reality what they get is A LOT more work and to me that not really an improvement on the situation.

When most women stayed home, for the most part their only responsibility was homemaking and rearing children. When women went to work they still had the home keeping and child rearing responsibilities but then had the added stress of a job. Some husbands (when one is present in the home) are great at helping out while others aren't. In some ways it seems like women took a step back by going to work because they have so much more stress and responsibility whereas mens lives for the most part remained the same. How is that progress? Real progress will occur when everybody shares the responsibilities equitably and men don't run out on their families (and men and women work TOGETHER to solve problems rather than get divorced or whatever.)

Anyway that's my 2 cents. I'm happy to have anyone tell me why I'm wrong...I'm still learning and growing and I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't thought of.

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well I consider myself somewhat feminist, but here's how I have viewed the topic since I wrote my senior thesis for my history degree on the changes that occurred between WWI and WWII that enabled so many women to go to work during WWII when they hadn't during WWI. (This was a few years ago.) Anyway what I have observed is that women want equal rights and all of that...which is GREAT....but in reality what they get is A LOT more work and to me that not really an improvement on the situation.

When most women stayed home, for the most part their only responsibility was homemaking and rearing children. When women went to work they still had the home keeping and child rearing responsibilities but then had the added stress of a job. Some husbands (when one is present in the home) are great at helping out while others aren't. In some ways it seems like women took a step back by going to work because they have so much more stress and responsibility whereas mens lives for the most part remained the same. How is that progress? Real progress will occur when everybody shares the responsibilities equitably and men don't run out on their families (and men and women work TOGETHER to solve problems rather than get divorced or whatever.)

Anyway that's my 2 cents. I'm happy to have anyone tell me why I'm wrong...I'm still learning and growing and I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't thought of.

Well said.

Except that it's a really simplistic view. During the time she speaks of, when "most women stayed home" and raised kids, women were not able to legally own land/a home without their husband's consent and being married, and being married was grounds for firing. So no, I'm not buying the trade off that women had to do less but were better off. And later on when women had more rights, they lacked opportunity because you were either a career girl or a housewife and many companies and graduate schools didn't want to invest in hiring, training, educating women, so the ones that did work (and about half did, so not really most stayed home) had far fewer opportunities.

[Anonymous]

16:41, this is not being pushed out, it's a personal problem. Why in the world would you ever think an employer had to accomodate your personal life, rather than making all the accomodations to have a job? I'm a 46 year old female and I don't get it. Why would you expect your employer to be flexible just because your husband had an inflexible job or approach to his job? How is that even relevant to the employer?

It's a couple's job to arrange their personal lives to accomodate the demands of their jobs. Since we've always done that, maybe that's why I wouldn't ever feel "pushed out."

"I am the poster that first used the term pushed out of the workforce. I was meaning it in a very specific way - referring to the book "Opting Out?" I think it's called which was written to show that Lisa Belkin's opt out revolution was a myth, and that what was happening is that some women (and please note I said SOME and not ALL) are not opting out of the workforce but rather feel pushed out, because of unflexible policies, husbands who don't want to miss a beat in their careers so don't help with sick days, pediatrician appointments, etc. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:16:41, this is not being pushed out, it's a personal problem. Why in the world would you ever think an employer had to accomodate your personal life, rather than making all the accomodations to have a job? I'm a 46 year old female and I don't get it. Why would you expect your employer to be flexible just because your husband had an inflexible job or approach to his job? How is that even relevant to the employer?

It's a couple's job to arrange their personal lives to accomodate the demands of their jobs. Since we've always done that, maybe that's why I wouldn't ever feel "pushed out."

Are you the same poster that always argues against telecommuting options, is really into "face time" etc.? If so I have no desire to engage with you further because we won't agree. You are missing my point my big time though if you think I think it is the employers' problem. It is only the employer's problem if they give if a shit about retaining people and working parents. If they don't you are right.

Are you aware that there is an entire industry and a huge number of consulting firms that justify their existance with helping the employers who do care about this work on these issues? I'm thinking you are not. My husband's company did not put in a daycare because the CEO liked having little children around. It was a rentention tool. Parents are strongly encourage to limit their child's time in daycare (so it is open early and late but you are not supposed to have your child there from open to close, you are supposed to pick a maximum ten hour time frame. And parents are strongly encourage to volunteer and attend events there during work hours, and moms are encouraged to go down and breast feed. There is also a really nice pumping lounge which is a sign that a company is not freaking out if you take time to pump.

We both have telecommuting options (which we don't take advantage of because his commute is a joke and mine is not bad either) and I worked a reduced shedule for a couple of years. So if you think this is just a personal problem, many, many top companies disagree with you and they are willing to pay consultants a lot of $ to figure these issues. This is not touchy feely stuff, there is a big business case for companies to do this, it is recognized, and many are on board.

[Anonymous]

PP, my workplace has no onsite daycare, very limited telecommuting, no flex time options. And we don't have an employee retention problem (no, I do not work at a law firm).

What retains people, well, at least people over 35 who have a good work ethic, is fair pay for the work and skill set. We've had only three people leave my group of almost 60 in the past 10 years, and two of them left for geographic relocations.

[Anonymous]

I am a 35 year old feminist, with a degree in, among other things, Women's Studies. I feel like an anachronism though. I feel like most women my age and younger weren't raised to "have it all" and that my values are hopelessly dated -- that the way I've embraced the Second Wave is totally out of date.

I don't want to make 77 cents on any man's dollar and I've been smacked down in more than one work setting for not being quiet and demure. I've negotiated hard for my salary on several occasions and I work in a male dominated industry. My DD is a toddler and I hope to send her to an all-girls' school so she can have the advantages I did, and learn that she has choices and options too.

I'm lucky because I do have a flexible job. I don't feel pushed out of the workforce by lack of options in that regard. I can work from home when I have a sick child. I don't have to be in court or on the Hill like many of you. All the same, it burns me up when I hear other women who have taken advantage of the Second Wave talking about how they aren't feminists. How nice for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a 35 year old feminist, with a degree in, among other things, Women's Studies. I feel like an anachronism though. I feel like most women my age and younger weren't raised to "have it all" and that my values are hopelessly dated -- that the way I've embraced the Second Wave is totally out of date.

I don't want to make 77 cents on any man's dollar and I've been smacked down in more than one work setting for not being quiet and demure. I've negotiated hard for my salary on several occasions and I work in a male dominated industry. My DD is a toddler and I hope to send her to an all-girls' school so she can have the advantages I did, and learn that she has choices and options too.

I'm lucky because I do have a flexible job. I don't feel pushed out of the workforce by lack of options in that regard. I can work from home when I have a sick child. I don't have to be in court or on the Hill like many of you. All the same, it burns me up when I hear other women who have taken advantage of the Second Wave talking about how they aren't feminists. How nice for them.

Totally agree. I've spoken up more than probably my fair share on this thread, one of the most interesting I've encountered on DCUM. I am trying to be better about the whole "demure" thing - living in the DC area for several years has definitely helped. But I'm not as great at negotiating and selling myself as I could be. I also went to a private middle and high school, and though it was coed, in middle school the classes were separated, and there was a girl's hall and boy's hall. Man, do I think that helped me. I'm not sure if I'll be able to do that for my daughter. She is young and has such confidence and just abandon right now...I hope that never changes.

[Anonymous]

I posted a couple times earlier on about how I think that we still have a long way to go. On that note, since people on this thread seem to be interested in actual thought provoking discussion (unlike basically all the other hilarious time waster threads that are active right now), how are you ladies all passing along your convictions and beliefs to your children? Are your strategies different with daughters than with sons?

My daughter is still a baby, but I really feel like the gendering of her life started before she was even born, as it always does, with people saying "Oh, it's a girl?" and following that up with either a gift that was some shade of pink or purple or a comment asking if my husband wanted sons or some other thing of that nature. When she was born, the "daddy's little princess" shit started, which really just creeps me out in a very Jon Benet kind of way. She is in daycare now, at 8 months, and she is one of only a handful of girls in the infant room. At daycare, the very nice ladies who care for her all day are forever giving her girly nicknames and playing with her (very small amount of) hair. One of my friends mentioned, in the context of how my daughter was jumping in her jumperoo really vigorously "Oh she's gonna be a ballerina or a gymnast or something!" I know she meant it as a compliment, but I really doubt she would have said anything of the kind if I had a jumping son in the swing instead of a daughter.

These are really superficial examples, probably because my baby is just a baby. My mother is an extremely strong empowered woman. Her mom was the first in her family to go to college, went on to become chair of her department and started a second career as an author when she retired. I have been thinking a lot lately about how to pass on my history and my mother and grandmother's histories and the history of women in general to my daughter as she grows up. I want more than anything else for her to be proud of the work done by the first, second and third wave feminists that made her eventual Nobel Prize winning career possible. (Tongue in cheek grin.)

So how do you teach that sort of thing?

[Anonymous]

"So how do you teach that sort of thing? "

Go lesbo.

[Anonymous]

14:48, not sure, but luckily, I have no daughters. If it's any consolation, I've chosen to work at least part time over my childrens' lifetimes, yet I had a dyed in the wool SAHM for a mom. People do have individual temperaments and personalities.

[Anonymous]

14:48 - I consider myself pretty laid back and always rolled my eyes at the moms who tried to control the whole gender stereotyping thing, until I had a daughter. I recommend the book "Marketing Girlhood" - it's pretty long but the authors take on the issue and offer some reasonable guidance.

I have a neighbor with a young school-aged girl and she is a great role model for me. Her daughter does ballet AND soccer. And she likes to dress up sometimes (wear sparkly things and skirts for example) but she sees her mom head out to work in jeans on some days.

One suggestion the book made was how girls' clothing can be very limiting. So even if your daughter is playing princess, make sure she spends time in sneakers and "non binding" clothes - sounds silly but it is so true. I always have sneakers with me so I can change shoes and walk to as many outside meetings, etc. as I can. If I was stuck in heels all day I'd just take a cab and miss out on the great walk. Clothes really do influence your activity!

On a deeper level, I don't know the answers. I just want to encourage my daughter to play hard and do things she loves, and speak up. I will NOT tell her that girls are usually not good at math and science like my mom told me. Love my mom and she is awesome but that was not great - I ended up being a literature major in college and avoiding all non required math and science at my liberal arts school, and then having to take a bunch of pre-reqs for my MS program later on.

As for sons, my success as a WOHM comes in part from my husbands support and the fact that he does so much around the house - cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc. He was raised by a WOHM and I think that's part of the reason. So if I have a son, I will try to keep that in mind. I welcome anyone else's suggestions - mine are kind of lame but these are tough issues and I don't want to "control" my kids - more influence them and just make these kinds of things the norm and not "boy this" and "girl that."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:48, not sure, but luckily, I have no daughters. If it's any consolation, I've chosen to work at least part time over my childrens' lifetimes, yet I had a dyed in the wool SAHM for a mom. People do have individual temperaments and personalities.

I just posted after you, and want to reiterate as I have in some of my other responses in this thread, I don't think there is anything inheritantly femininist about working or inheritantly non-feminist about being a SAHM. I was raised by a "dyed in the wool" SAHM as well, and both my parents are VERY traditional in that they think finances is a man's issue/problem and men should work, women stay home. And yet, they could not be supportive of the fact that I work and could not make me feel they were more proud of me and my husband for our set up. They raised me to make up my own mind and use my judgement - and of course, financial necessity is very different for us than for them (dad had a pension, was at the company for 30 years, we lived in a smaller town, expenses were less, etc.).

Point is, I would hate for this discussion to turn into "SAHMS aren't feminists." That is silly, especially when all my SAHM friends are involved in issues outside their own family/home/kids and also are up on and in some cases in charge of the family finances, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, my workplace has no onsite daycare, very limited telecommuting, no flex time options. And we don't have an employee retention problem (no, I do not work at a law firm).

What retains people, well, at least people over 35 who have a good work ethic, is fair pay for the work and skill set. We've had only three people leave my group of almost 60 in the past 10 years, and two of them left for geographic relocations.

What will your company provide to retain those under 35 who have just a great a worth ethic as the older employees. The new generation require work-life balances and the companies that recognize this shift in good talent will be the ones for the better.