Tangential Spin-Off from Kitchen Pass thread: " I'm not a feminist"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the "equal pay" advocate, I think the current mantra is "seventy-seven cents." What is equal work, anyway, and who decides? If you are, say, a fifth year associate at a law firm, you may THINK you do "equal" work to that of the fifth year in the office next door, and maybe you both even put in the same hours, but maybe, just maybe, his or her work is better than yours. I rather doubt your unbiased statistics control for that.

Do they also control for the rather obvious reason for women's supposedly lower pay -- that more women take time off to raise children? That is good for women, and good for society.

That is also an obvious explanation for why you find fewer women CEOs and law firm partners. Fewer women WANT those jobs, because they are not compatible with good parenting unless you have a spouse who wants to be the primary parent, and not too many men want to do that. My own husband's career prospects were far inferior to mine, but we still decided that I would be the primary parent (ie work part time and be available at all times kids need me), because he would have been lousy at it, and I actually enjoy it.

Finally, your gripe about men not doing their share at home is not "discrimination." -- each couple needs to work those things out before they get married and have kids. If women didn't marry jerks (and nobody makes them), there wouldn't be a problem!

Ok, whatever June Clever.

Not the PP, but its nasty dismissive comments like this that make women not want to be associated with the feminist movement. Nothing she said was "June Cleaver-esque", and is not even remotely anti-feminist to choose to be the primary caregiver to one's children. I think it is incredibly demeaning to women to imply that we are "forced" by our husbands to do more than 50% of the housework. Unless he is beating you, any "feminist" worth her salt should be perfectly capable of standing up to her husband and telling him to step up. And questioning the party line that the pay gap is purely a result of discrimination does not make one "June Cleaver".

Right on! Thank you for sharing and expressing what many of my friends and I feel about the core of the feminist movement "leaders."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many women say "I'm not a feminist but ..." because many self-described feminists identify feminism with a particular set of liberal beliefs. For example, I'm a WOHM with a career I love, and my DH is the one who makes career sacrifices for child-raising, because he makes less money. I work in a male-dominated profession, and believe I am doing great at it. I personally believe I am living a very "feminist" life. That said, I am politically conservative / libertarian, I'm a pro-life Catholic, and disagree with a significant percentage of the political positions of NOW. So you tell me, am I, as I believe, a feminist, or do I have to say "I'm not a feminist, but . . ." If your answer is that my non-liberal beliefs disqualify me from being a feminist, then there you go, that is why many women decline to idetify themselves as "feminist".

Yet the efforts of liberal feminists allowed you to work and excel in your male-dominated profession, as I'm sure you recognize.

I strongly disagree. In fact, I think the Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem types who come across as "man-haters" hindered our advancement in the workplace. I think that post WW II, the work ethic of individual women (yes, I do think they had to work harder than men to prove themselves) in a variety of jobs and professional positions showed what women can do. Btw, I'm politically conservative but very much admire Hillary Clinton for her accomplishments and the rearing of a lovely, caring, intelligent daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me, feminist = man hater. I think of people like Mary Daly, recently profiled in the NYT Sunday Magazine, who wouldn't let men enroll in the classes she taught because she wanted them to feel excluded, too. If you believe in equality and all of that, why not just call yourself a "peopleist" or a "humanist"? Identifying yourself as being "pro" one group is like saying "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others." Maybe it was necessary to redress an imbalance 50 years ago, but it is hardly necessary now.

And BTW, the Ledbetter Fair Pay Act that somebody mentioned above DID NOT usher in an equal pay requirement for the first time. That's been federal law for DECADES, folks. All the recent legislation does is let women sit on their pay discrimination claims for years instead of suing promptly when they recognize discrimination, which is what every victim of discrimination should do.

Seriously? Folks just sit around for years, then finally get around to filing a claim when it suits them? In the early years of her tenure as an area manager, Ledbetter's salary was in line with that of her male peers. The gap grew over time as the men got more generous raises and others were hired in at higher salaries. Ledbetter only discovered the pay discrimination inadvertently - an inequality that stretched over a couple of decades, not just the six months as specified by the SCOTUS majority.

And citing Mary Daly, really? Is Farrakhan your preferred example for all African-Americans? Osama your go-to when talking about Muslims? BTW, Mary Daly is dead. And she despised a ton of "feminists" as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many women say "I'm not a feminist but ..." because many self-described feminists identify feminism with a particular set of liberal beliefs. For example, I'm a WOHM with a career I love, and my DH is the one who makes career sacrifices for child-raising, because he makes less money. I work in a male-dominated profession, and believe I am doing great at it. I personally believe I am living a very "feminist" life. That said, I am politically conservative / libertarian, I'm a pro-life Catholic, and disagree with a significant percentage of the political positions of NOW. So you tell me, am I, as I believe, a feminist, or do I have to say "I'm not a feminist, but . . ." If your answer is that my non-liberal beliefs disqualify me from being a feminist, then there you go, that is why many women decline to idetify themselves as "feminist".

Yet the efforts of liberal feminists allowed you to work and excel in your male-dominated profession, as I'm sure you recognize.

I strongly disagree. In fact, I think the Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem types who come across as "man-haters" hindered our advancement in the workplace. I think that post WW II, the work ethic of individual women (yes, I do think they had to work harder than men to prove themselves) in a variety of jobs and professional positions showed what women can do. Btw, I'm politically conservative but very much admire Hillary Clinton for her accomplishments and the rearing of a lovely, caring, intelligent daughter.

It's sad that anyone would think Betty Friedan is a man-hater. She was married with three children when she wrote The Feminine Mystique - she was unhappy and unfulfilled and she wrote that book as an outlet because as she researched, she realized she was not the only one who felt that way. She said she felt lucky that writing lent itself to raising kids, and in the book, she advocates for a "GI Training" bill for women who want to take time off to raise kids and then re-enter the workforce. It astounds me that she could be called a man-hater.

[Anonymous]

I'm with you PP. There is nothing man-hating about "the feminine mystique"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm with you PP. There is nothing man-hating about "the feminine mystique"

I completely agree. The women's movement and the trailblazers like Betty Friedan focused on what women should/could do to change their situation. It really had nothing to do with men. It also looked at society, but I have no idea where you got "man-hater." Have you read the Femininie Mystique? It's a great book and really provides insight into the 50's culture and how many women felt.

[Anonymous]

Stunningly dull...........

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Want to know whether you are a feminist or not? For the next week, try calling God "she", "mother", or "goddess" when you pray or talk about God. Surely god doesn't have genitals.... so it's really just our narrow understanding that requires us to conceive of God as having a body and a gender.... so try thinking about god as female. Are most of us even capable of such a heresy?

Didn't think so.

this is exactly why people like to preface their statements with "i'm not a feminist but..."

Not sure what you mean?

Btw, my grandmother always referred to god in the feminine form.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Want to know whether you are a feminist or not? For the next week, try calling God "she", "mother", or "goddess" when you pray or talk about God. Surely god doesn't have genitals.... so it's really just our narrow understanding that requires us to conceive of God as having a body and a gender.... so try thinking about god as female. Are most of us even capable of such a heresy?

Didn't think so.

this is exactly why people like to preface their statements with "i'm not a feminist but..."

Not sure what you mean?

Btw, my grandmother always referred to god in the feminine form.

It's silly that you (first poster being quoted) thinks that you have to refer to God/god whatever as she. I don't know why we have to reduce philosophies like feminism to labels or simplicities like this. I'm a feminist - I wear cute clothes, love handbags, love celeb gossip, shave, rarely leave the house without wearing make up, and blow dry my hair every morning. I'm a mom and a wife as well. I simply believe that women should have the same opportunities as men and that women are strong and can be leaders, and that has nothing to do with God, I am not particularly religious so every move I make doesn't come down to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was never the case that most women stayed home. Most may have aspired to, but it has always been a luxury (except on the farm, where everyone technically "stayed home" and everyone worked their asses off).

So true. And remember that when we refer to the so-called good old days of women only responsible for child-rearing, we're defining "women" to exclude black women. For most of this country/the colonies' history, black women were owned by people who forced them to to work harder than any of us can imagine. They did backbreaking farm and domestic work and some raised white people's children, often after their own children were sold.

The happy, well-ironed homemaker is but one version of the American experience. See it through Friedan's lens and it's got down sides. See it through the eyes of a fulfilled SAHM and it's the most important job in the world. But the "good old days" and "traditional roles" promoters don't know or refuse to see how most people have lived through the centuries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I usually see this line in this kind of context:

"I'm not a feminist but I think women can stand up for themselves and be counted."
"I'm not a feminist but I think it's fine for women to out-earn their husbands"
"I'm not a feminist but I believe in abortion rights"

It's a way of saying "I'm a nice, normal, feminine woman about to say something that could be considered controversial or unfeminine; please still see me as nice and normal and feminine."

ITA. The term has been appropriated and redefined as a caricaiture by people who are threatened by women having equal power in all spheres of life. It's now come to the point that, unfortunately, many women who espouse feminist positions will deny that they are feminists, because they fear being typecast as "man-haters" or some other such BS. Talk about divide and conquer...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't want equality. I just want to burn the women who burned their bras that day...

I only wish I could just stay home, be with the kids and have no stress while DH works and brings us the big bucks.

Now back to reality. Bye.

Horrible throwback. Why should DH have all the stress in your family? Grow up.

[Anonymous]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/justice-scalia-women-not-constitutionally-protected-from-discrimination

[Anonymous]

How do they feel "pushed out"? Crappy childcare or unsupportive husband? My kids are both upper elementary school age, and I don't understand why juggling kids and work would make a parent feel pushed out. Unless you mean they aren't committed to work anymore.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the "equal pay" advocate, I think the current mantra is "seventy-seven cents." What is equal work, anyway, and who decides? If you are, say, a fifth year associate at a law firm, you may THINK you do "equal" work to that of the fifth year in the office next door, and maybe you both even put in the same hours, but maybe, just maybe, his or her work is better than yours. I rather doubt your unbiased statistics control for that.

Do they also control for the rather obvious reason for women's supposedly lower pay -- that more women take time off to raise children? That is good for women, and good for society.

That is also an obvious explanation for why you find fewer women CEOs and law firm partners. Fewer women WANT those jobs, because they are not compatible with good parenting unless you have a spouse who wants to be the primary parent, and not too many men want to do that. My own husband's career prospects were far inferior to mine, but we still decided that I would be the primary parent (ie work part time and be available at all times kids need me), because he would have been lousy at it, and I actually enjoy it.

Finally, your gripe about men not doing their share at home is not "discrimination." -- each couple needs to work those things out before they get married and have kids. If women didn't marry jerks (and nobody makes them), there wouldn't be a problem!

I'm not the poster you responded to, but for many women, they feel pushed out of the workforce to raise kids. If we had more supportive policies, this wouldn't be the case. I have a ton of friends of who feel this way, and the research states this as well. Not all women, certainly some choose to leave, but some feel pushed out. And in some cases, leaving work to raise kids is good for society, but for the women and children who end up in poverty, it's not good. Check the stats - what is the #1 risk for poverty in this country? Motherhood. And that's really sad and definitely NOT good for society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do they feel "pushed out"? Crappy childcare or unsupportive husband? My kids are both upper elementary school age, and I don't understand why juggling kids and work would make a parent feel pushed out. Unless you mean they aren't committed to work anymore.

This is what I don't understand. All because your individual experience as a WOHM hasn't made you feel "pushed out", you can't understand how that happens to other women? You surely lack an understanding of what else is going on around you if you feel that way.

I'm a lawyer at a big law firm and I can tell you that married women with children (and quite frankly, ALL women) do NOT get the same opportunities as the male attorneys and are not promoted to the same extent. We can always point to some explanation as to why this is happening. I have heard it explained by my firm as women "self-selecting" out. Which is complete BS. Sure...*some* women self-select out of partnership race, but does that really explain why female partners account for only 10% of the total partnership, when female associates ranks are closer to 50% (and for YEARS there have been more female first year associates than male)???? No...we are not all self-selecting out. We simply are NOT given the same opportunities to succeed. We don't have the same access to clients. We don't get the same mentoring. Yes, we have additional demands when you look at child care, etc. But it is more than that.

To say that the answer is that we "aren't committed to work anymore" is truly ignorant.