MCSL gender policy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting back on track- does anyone know how MCDL or NVSL came to this guidance? It doesn’t sound like they or any of the pools that they represent had any community meetings or sought feedback on this issue. Given the sensitivity of the topic- that’s a bit concerning parents and communities weren’t allowed to weigh in….

NVSL follows USA swimming guidance where it only comes into play at the elite athlete level. Once an athlete is competing at the elate level testosterone levels are checked.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Based on some of the, now deleted comments, on here I can see why a summer recreational swim league decided to follow a large governing body with decisions based on science vs feeling of parents. I can not even imagine how ugly a community meetings would be or maybe people are just more nasty behind the keyboard.

Fair point. But if you want parents to give up time in their schedules and volunteer to help at swim meets and other events, it would be nice to feel like our input is valued. It’s a sensitive topic that shouldn’t just be blindly rolled out without considering the community’s input.

In any given summer how many trans kids are your children swimming against? Is it really ruining their summer swim experience?

it is only sensitive if you make it that way. Unless the community is made up of actual medical experts vs parents with feelings I see no need for community input. So you would be cool with trans athletes if you felt your view was heard, even if it changed nothing about the current policy? This post alone show how ugly the community can be, what volunteer wants to sit through that meeting?

It takes precisely one trans girl to kick an actual female out of a medal spot. For non competitive summer swim kids this is their only chance to medal in something. I don't care if it's not the olympics. I am not ok with this.

Oh please, all the club swimmer are kicking the non competitive kids out of medal contention. The one trans kid in your division is not the issue.

and has this fake scenario really happend?

DP. I agree that club swimmers are really the people booting the non competitive summer only kids out of A meets, All Stars, etc.; however, the argument that it hasn’t happened yet so it’s ok, holds no weight. The Lia Thomas situation hadn’t happened before until it did. If we all now have the benefit of seeing the potential for a situation to happen it should be addressed rather than hiding your head in the sand and saying well it hasn’t happened yet so let’s pretend it’s never going to. And since the Lia Thomas situation, female athletes themselves and people in general now feel more comfortable saying that trans women should not be competing in women’s sports. I know my teen daughter and her teammates have discussed the issue and all of them feel strongly that they should not have to share their locker room or compete against biological males. Their voices shouldn’t be silenced on this issue by people yelling into the abyss about how they are just bigots.

They call people bigots because that's literally all they've got. They certainly don't have common sense or the backing of science on this issue. So they resort to name calling. At this point they can call me whatever they want - they're wrong, and they will lose on this issue. They're already losing. Give it a few more months and males will be banned from competing against females.

Just remember - facts don't care about your feelings. Nor should they.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting back on track- does anyone know how MCDL or NVSL came to this guidance? It doesn’t sound like they or any of the pools that they represent had any community meetings or sought feedback on this issue. Given the sensitivity of the topic- that’s a bit concerning parents and communities weren’t allowed to weigh in….

NVSL follows USA swimming guidance where it only comes into play at the elite athlete level. Once an athlete is competing at the elate level testosterone levels are checked.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Based on some of the, now deleted comments, on here I can see why a summer recreational swim league decided to follow a large governing body with decisions based on science vs feeling of parents. I can not even imagine how ugly a community meetings would be or maybe people are just more nasty behind the keyboard.

Fair point. But if you want parents to give up time in their schedules and volunteer to help at swim meets and other events, it would be nice to feel like our input is valued. It’s a sensitive topic that shouldn’t just be blindly rolled out without considering the community’s input.

In any given summer how many trans kids are your children swimming against? Is it really ruining their summer swim experience?

it is only sensitive if you make it that way. Unless the community is made up of actual medical experts vs parents with feelings I see no need for community input. So you would be cool with trans athletes if you felt your view was heard, even if it changed nothing about the current policy? This post alone show how ugly the community can be, what volunteer wants to sit through that meeting?

It takes precisely one trans girl to kick an actual female out of a medal spot. For non competitive summer swim kids this is their only chance to medal in something. I don't care if it's not the olympics. I am not ok with this.

Oh please, all the club swimmer are kicking the non competitive kids out of medal contention. The one trans kid in your division is not the issue.

and has this fake scenario really happend?

DP. I agree that club swimmers are really the people booting the non competitive summer only kids out of A meets, All Stars, etc.; however, the argument that it hasn’t happened yet so it’s ok, holds no weight. The Lia Thomas situation hadn’t happened before until it did. If we all now have the benefit of seeing the potential for a situation to happen it should be addressed rather than hiding your head in the sand and saying well it hasn’t happened yet so let’s pretend it’s never going to. And since the Lia Thomas situation, female athletes themselves and people in general now feel more comfortable saying that trans women should not be competing in women’s sports. I know my teen daughter and her teammates have discussed the issue and all of them feel strongly that they should not have to share their locker room or compete against biological males. Their voices shouldn’t be silenced on this issue by people yelling into the abyss about how they are just bigots.

They call people bigots because that's literally all they've got. They certainly don't have common sense or the backing of science on this issue. So they resort to name calling. At this point they can call me whatever they want - they're wrong, and they will lose on this issue. They're already losing. Give it a few more months and males will be banned from competing against females.

Just remember - facts don't care about your feelings. Nor should they.

No people get called bigoted when in arguing against trans athletes they aren't arguing on facts (impact of male puberty etc. Science on the issue- no where above did I see any scientific studies linked) but instead referrer to a trans woman as a man, saying he, calling them freaks along with some other pretty nasty things. All of those previous posts were deleted.

Now I had posted a while back and I think it was deleted because it was in response/tied to a pretty crude comment, that I don't think the issue is so black and white. I think there is a hug difference between someone who goes through full male puberty then competes as a women and someone who transitioned earlier/was on hormone blockers from a young age and never went through male puberty. Although science say different as research shows that when you suppress testosterone in male they no longer have an athletic advantage. It also matters a lot less in younger children where the girls are typically bigger and faster than the boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting back on track- does anyone know how MCDL or NVSL came to this guidance? It doesn’t sound like they or any of the pools that they represent had any community meetings or sought feedback on this issue. Given the sensitivity of the topic- that’s a bit concerning parents and communities weren’t allowed to weigh in….

NVSL follows USA swimming guidance where it only comes into play at the elite athlete level. Once an athlete is competing at the elate level testosterone levels are checked.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Based on some of the, now deleted comments, on here I can see why a summer recreational swim league decided to follow a large governing body with decisions based on science vs feeling of parents. I can not even imagine how ugly a community meetings would be or maybe people are just more nasty behind the keyboard.

Fair point. But if you want parents to give up time in their schedules and volunteer to help at swim meets and other events, it would be nice to feel like our input is valued. It’s a sensitive topic that shouldn’t just be blindly rolled out without considering the community’s input.

In any given summer how many trans kids are your children swimming against? Is it really ruining their summer swim experience?

it is only sensitive if you make it that way. Unless the community is made up of actual medical experts vs parents with feelings I see no need for community input. So you would be cool with trans athletes if you felt your view was heard, even if it changed nothing about the current policy? This post alone show how ugly the community can be, what volunteer wants to sit through that meeting?

It takes precisely one trans girl to kick an actual female out of a medal spot. For non competitive summer swim kids this is their only chance to medal in something. I don't care if it's not the olympics. I am not ok with this.

Oh please, all the club swimmer are kicking the non competitive kids out of medal contention. The one trans kid in your division is not the issue.

and has this fake scenario really happend?

DP. I agree that club swimmers are really the people booting the non competitive summer only kids out of A meets, All Stars, etc.; however, the argument that it hasn’t happened yet so it’s ok, holds no weight. The Lia Thomas situation hadn’t happened before until it did. If we all now have the benefit of seeing the potential for a situation to happen it should be addressed rather than hiding your head in the sand and saying well it hasn’t happened yet so let’s pretend it’s never going to. And since the Lia Thomas situation, female athletes themselves and people in general now feel more comfortable saying that trans women should not be competing in women’s sports. I know my teen daughter and her teammates have discussed the issue and all of them feel strongly that they should not have to share their locker room or compete against biological males. Their voices shouldn’t be silenced on this issue by people yelling into the abyss about how they are just bigots.

They call people bigots because that's literally all they've got. They certainly don't have common sense or the backing of science on this issue. So they resort to name calling. At this point they can call me whatever they want - they're wrong, and they will lose on this issue. They're already losing. Give it a few more months and males will be banned from competing against females.

Just remember - facts don't care about your feelings. Nor should they.

No people get called bigoted when in arguing against trans athletes they aren't arguing on facts (impact of male puberty etc. Science on the issue- no where above did I see any scientific studies linked) but instead referrer to a trans woman as a man, saying he, calling them freaks along with some other pretty nasty things. All of those previous posts were deleted.

Now I had posted a while back and I think it was deleted because it was in response/tied to a pretty crude comment, that I don't think the issue is so black and white. I think there is a hug difference between someone who goes through full male puberty then competes as a women and someone who transitioned earlier/was on hormone blockers from a young age and never went through male puberty. Although science say different as research shows that when you suppress testosterone in male they no longer have an athletic advantage. It also matters a lot less in younger children where the girls are typically bigger and faster than the boys.

It's pretty clear there are other things going on. So, they don't have testosterone, but they aren't menstrating, which is actually a kind of a disadvantage. Brittany Griner is 6'8". What are the chances that two XY carriers happen to take silver and gold at the Olympics in women's boxing. Coincidence? I don't think so, given the rarity of being cis-gender and an elite boxer. This is where science should know better than to use their normal distribution, these aren't your average XX women here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting back on track- does anyone know how MCDL or NVSL came to this guidance? It doesn’t sound like they or any of the pools that they represent had any community meetings or sought feedback on this issue. Given the sensitivity of the topic- that’s a bit concerning parents and communities weren’t allowed to weigh in….

NVSL follows USA swimming guidance where it only comes into play at the elite athlete level. Once an athlete is competing at the elate level testosterone levels are checked.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Based on some of the, now deleted comments, on here I can see why a summer recreational swim league decided to follow a large governing body with decisions based on science vs feeling of parents. I can not even imagine how ugly a community meetings would be or maybe people are just more nasty behind the keyboard.

Fair point. But if you want parents to give up time in their schedules and volunteer to help at swim meets and other events, it would be nice to feel like our input is valued. It’s a sensitive topic that shouldn’t just be blindly rolled out without considering the community’s input.

Do you really want this sensitive topic being open for public comment/discussion? That would be asking for all kinds of drama and attention that I’m sure trans swimmers would like to avoid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our summer team has one nonbinary child and that child selects which gender to race with at the start of the summer. I’ve always thought it odd and unnecessary that we break rec sports up by gender so much. I would be fine if we just swam all of summer league mixed gender, by age.

If your Larla is there to win and can’t beat the boys, then maybe she shouldn’t be there. For most of the kids, this is about community and fun, not setting lame-ass pool records. Most of these kids will move on to real accomplishments in life after MCSL.

Jesus, what decade are you from that you think if girls can’t beat boys in an athletic competition then they just shouldn’t be competing.

The above is telling and it reflects the attitude of folks who do not value female sports. They argue biological differences occur within sexes and genders that give lots of folks advantages over others, so having Lia Thomas swim with women is no different. Of course, that logic ends exactly where it did above, no need for women’s sports at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be very cautious about basing any children's sports on genetic information. Honestly, how do people think that works? Are we going to require all kids to get genetically tested to participate in 6 weeks of summer swim? Or just the ones that are particularly tall, or maybe the ones with short hair?

My first choice is to recognize that summer swim is a rec sport, the point is for kids to form community, and be healthy, and have fun and that allowing kids to choose where to swim aligns with that.

But even for more competitive sports, HS varsity, or high level club sports, I can understand the argument for going by the sex assigned at birth. I can't understand placing the burden of genetic testing on every family, and I absolutely don't think that picking and choosing who will be tested is fair or makes sense.

Adult sports, NCAA, professional, Olympics etc . . . are a completely different situation.

There's this thing. It's called a birth certificate. This would be accurate for 99.9% of people. No genetic testing necessary.

Or a question in the physical form doctors are already filling out.

[Anonymous]

Still trying to understand how this impacts MCSL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Still trying to understand how this impacts MCSL

Mostly the impact is felt through the parent's political affiliations that had embarrassing policy positions based on bad science so now they don't have jobs because boys (XY) with genetic defects aren't girls (XX) and won't have periods and possibly other female phenotypes like smaller stature, hips or breasts etc. Many of which will give boys with genetic defects competitive advantages if competing with girls, though some of the genetic defects like testosterone production will make the boys with genetic defects disadvantaged as compared to normal boys at least the competitive ones .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Still trying to understand how this impacts MCSL

People are concerned that because NVSL, and presumable MCSL, follow USA swimming guidelines and allow transgender swimmers to participate in their recreational swim league that their non competitive swimmers may lose their chance to shine because of a handful of transgender swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still trying to understand how this impacts MCSL

People are concerned that because NVSL, and presumable MCSL, follow USA swimming guidelines and allow transgender swimmers to participate in their recreational swim league that their non competitive swimmers may lose their chance to shine because of a handful of transgender swimmers.

Being trans has been en vogue for about a decade. If there was going to be a man who becomes a woman and dominates NVSL, MCSL or CCSDA I think it would have already happened