UK and EU schools - Is your KID picking a UK or EU school over a US school?

[Anonymous]

I agree. But the solution isn't to make ECs the decider, since many are BS and not particularly relevant to the future. The solution is to get rid of grade inflation and make the SAT harder. Add another 400 points or so of REALLY tricky questions and see what it tells you.



But given the massive numbers who apply to Stanford, they have to have some decision mechanism for selection and, given grade inflation and the relatively low difficulty of US standardized tests, they can't make that selection on academic criteria alone. I don't think the emphasis on non-academic accomplishments makes much sense, but it's probably as good as many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am British, now living in the U.SA but graduated from University of London(Queen Mary College)

Can someone who has studied at both USA high school and UK university, please speak on their experience going from multchoice type questions (my USA kids mainly have multiple choice style questions for schoolwork at US public school) -vs- the essay style questions UK uni's use at end of year course exams (no multiple choice allowed).

Was it easy to make the transition in the two assessment styles?

I went to HS in the US and ended up at LSE to study Econ. It all depends on what kind of high school your kids go to. I was blessed to have been able to go to an elite private school in the Dallas area. I did not have ONE multiple choice test while I was there. It was very rigorous and it prepared me very well for LSE. My English and Asian friends in my first year similar stereotypical view of Americans, thinking I was going to crash and burn…as most Brits assume the typical HS education in the US is below par….maybe it is. But I graduated with a first from LSE and have been in the PE industry now for 2 decades back in the US. My son is now at Oxford studying Economics. He went to the same high school….no issues at all with rigor at Oxford.

I went to a top private US school (never had a multiple choice test except SAT and part of the AP exams - what are you talking about??), a top ten US college, and then did a master's at LSE.

LSE was the easiest school I went to. I had a few 3 to 5 page essays throughout the year, but most of them did not count towards my grades (one class did).

Then at the end of the year I had three exams for three classes and had to write a 10,000 word dissertation.

I had the entire summer to write the dissertation, which was the length of a paper I would write undergrad all the time, like in a seminar class.

The exams were cake. I say this as someone who is not particularly great at exams.

We had, I think, something like 15 weeks of classes. Each week covered one topic. On the exam, you had to answer three essay questions. But there were a dozen questions, one for 12 weeks/topics (3 topics/weeks would not make it onto the exam). And you only had to answer three! So the strategy was to learn four topics/weeks really really well. Hope that three of those show up on the exam, but in case they don't, learn two other topics/weeks somewhat well. Then learn one or two other topics a little bit, enough not to fail. The exams were three hours and you were expected to fill maybe one exam book per question, if that.

It was SOO much easier and less work than my US high school and my private liberal arts college.

You have to be pretty independent and learn most of the stuff on your own.

If your kid is going to an American high school where they are primarily tested in multiple choice, you need to get them the heck out of that school or into harder classes or dual enrollment or something. That's pathetic. Even AP exams have essays. I had zero multiple choice exams in high school other than SAT and parts of the APs.

Somehow the quotes got entangled…. BTW,I wasn’t the one talking about this. I’m the previous poster from TExas who went to LSE. Since you were there for your masters, I do have to say that while I also thought it wasn’t difficult, it is known thing that some of the top undergrad offerings at LSE are MUCH MUCH more difficult to get in than their master’s degrees….half of people there in their masters would have never got in certain undergrad programs to begin with ….BSc Econometrics & Mathemarical Econ being one of them… so lets not compare apples to oranges….

That might be true. I don’t know. But it’s the same system. I had tons of friends who were undergrads and they had the same kinds of assignments (nearly none) and exams. Exams worked the same way.

The juniors studying abroad undergrad at lse thought it was way way less work than the top colleges they went to in the states,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am British, now living in the U.SA but graduated from University of London(Queen Mary College)

Can someone who has studied at both USA high school and UK university, please speak on their experience going from multchoice type questions (my USA kids mainly have multiple choice style questions for schoolwork at US public school) -vs- the essay style questions UK uni's use at end of year course exams (no multiple choice allowed).

Was it easy to make the transition in the two assessment styles?

I went to HS in the US and ended up at LSE to study Econ. It all depends on what kind of high school your kids go to. I was blessed to have been able to go to an elite private school in the Dallas area. I did not have ONE multiple choice test while I was there. It was very rigorous and it prepared me very well for LSE. My English and Asian friends in my first year similar stereotypical view of Americans, thinking I was going to crash and burn…as most Brits assume the typical HS education in the US is below par….maybe it is. But I graduated with a first from LSE and have been in the PE industry now for 2 decades back in the US. My son is now at Oxford studying Economics. He went to the same high school….no issues at all with rigor at Oxford.

I went to a top private US school (never had a multiple choice test except SAT and part of the AP exams - what are you talking about??), a top ten US college, and then did a master's at LSE.

LSE was the easiest school I went to. I had a few 3 to 5 page essays throughout the year, but most of them did not count towards my grades (one class did).

Then at the end of the year I had three exams for three classes and had to write a 10,000 word dissertation.

I had the entire summer to write the dissertation, which was the length of a paper I would write undergrad all the time, like in a seminar class.

The exams were cake. I say this as someone who is not particularly great at exams.

We had, I think, something like 15 weeks of classes. Each week covered one topic. On the exam, you had to answer three essay questions. But there were a dozen questions, one for 12 weeks/topics (3 topics/weeks would not make it onto the exam). And you only had to answer three! So the strategy was to learn four topics/weeks really really well. Hope that three of those show up on the exam, but in case they don't, learn two other topics/weeks somewhat well. Then learn one or two other topics a little bit, enough not to fail. The exams were three hours and you were expected to fill maybe one exam book per question, if that.

It was SOO much easier and less work than my US high school and my private liberal arts college.

You have to be pretty independent and learn most of the stuff on your own.

If your kid is going to an American high school where they are primarily tested in multiple choice, you need to get them the heck out of that school or into harder classes or dual enrollment or something. That's pathetic. Even AP exams have essays. I had zero multiple choice exams in high school other than SAT and parts of the APs.

Somehow the quotes got entangled…. BTW,I wasn’t the one talking about this. I’m the previous poster from TExas who went to LSE. Since you were there for your masters, I do have to say that while I also thought it wasn’t difficult, it is known thing that some of the top undergrad offerings at LSE are MUCH MUCH more difficult to get in than their master’s degrees….half of people there in their masters would have never got in certain undergrad programs to begin with ….BSc Econometrics & Mathemarical Econ being one of them… so lets not compare apples to oranges….

That might be true. I don’t know. But it’s the same system. I had tons of friends who were undergrads and they had the same kinds of assignments (nearly none) and exams. Exams worked the same way.

The juniors studying abroad undergrad at lse thought it was way way less work than the top colleges they went to in the states,

Definitely a lot less work. That is very true. But then again your ability to get a good mark (grade) is dependent a lot of time on one single final exam….I had several single exam courses…with nothing else….no quizzes, BS projects…etc….either you know or you dont. You cant fake it with great group project grades and quizzes grades…So sure, a lot less work…but a heck of a lot more independent/tutorial work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

That’s not true at all

It is absolutely true. Corresponded with faculty and everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am British, now living in the U.SA but graduated from University of London(Queen Mary College)

Can someone who has studied at both USA high school and UK university, please speak on their experience going from multchoice type questions (my USA kids mainly have multiple choice style questions for schoolwork at US public school) -vs- the essay style questions UK uni's use at end of year course exams (no multiple choice allowed).

Was it easy to make the transition in the two assessment styles?

My two kids went to dual degree programs where they did two years at a US college and two years at a UK university.

So experienced the difference between multiple choice, many graded assignment vs mid-term and final essays. One child did better at US college other did better at UK university.

Take away is if the kid is a good writer and more self-motivated they can adapt to UK style, if not it is a harder transition but still doable.

I wonder if IB helps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

That’s not true at all

It is absolutely true. Corresponded with faculty and everything.

We also learned that DC would have to start foreign language from scratch at Oxford, even if it was just part of the degree focus such as in AMES. Cambridge actually offered a touch more flexibility in this regard. DC could join the more advanced language class after 1st year, but would have to pursue another language from scratch in year 1. Far from ideal either way...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

That’s not true at all

Yeah, Cambridge did not make our kid repeat multivariable calc or linear algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

That’s not true at all

It is absolutely true. Corresponded with faculty and everything.

From actual experience, our DC did not need to repeat any of those math classes at Cambridge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am British, now living in the U.SA but graduated from University of London(Queen Mary College)

Can someone who has studied at both USA high school and UK university, please speak on their experience going from multchoice type questions (my USA kids mainly have multiple choice style questions for schoolwork at US public school) -vs- the essay style questions UK uni's use at end of year course exams (no multiple choice allowed).

Was it easy to make the transition in the two assessment styles?

I went to HS in the US and ended up at LSE to study Econ. It all depends on what kind of high school your kids go to. I was blessed to have been able to go to an elite private school in the Dallas area. I did not have ONE multiple choice test while I was there. It was very rigorous and it prepared me very well for LSE. My English and Asian friends in my first year similar stereotypical view of Americans, thinking I was going to crash and burn…as most Brits assume the typical HS education in the US is below par….maybe it is. But I graduated with a first from LSE and have been in the PE industry now for 2 decades back in the US. My son is now at Oxford studying Economics. He went to the same high school….no issues at all with rigor at Oxford.

I went to a top private US school (never had a multiple choice test except SAT and part of the AP exams - what are you talking about??), a top ten US college, and then did a master's at LSE.

LSE was the easiest school I went to. I had a few 3 to 5 page essays throughout the year, but most of them did not count towards my grades (one class did).

Then at the end of the year I had three exams for three classes and had to write a 10,000 word dissertation.

I had the entire summer to write the dissertation, which was the length of a paper I would write undergrad all the time, like in a seminar class.

The exams were cake. I say this as someone who is not particularly great at exams.

We had, I think, something like 15 weeks of classes. Each week covered one topic. On the exam, you had to answer three essay questions. But there were a dozen questions, one for 12 weeks/topics (3 topics/weeks would not make it onto the exam). And you only had to answer three! So the strategy was to learn four topics/weeks really really well. Hope that three of those show up on the exam, but in case they don't, learn two other topics/weeks somewhat well. Then learn one or two other topics a little bit, enough not to fail. The exams were three hours and you were expected to fill maybe one exam book per question, if that.

It was SOO much easier and less work than my US high school and my private liberal arts college.

You have to be pretty independent and learn most of the stuff on your own.

If your kid is going to an American high school where they are primarily tested in multiple choice, you need to get them the heck out of that school or into harder classes or dual enrollment or something. That's pathetic. Even AP exams have essays. I had zero multiple choice exams in high school other than SAT and parts of the APs.

Somehow the quotes got entangled…. BTW,I wasn’t the one talking about this. I’m the previous poster from TExas who went to LSE. Since you were there for your masters, I do have to say that while I also thought it wasn’t difficult, it is known thing that some of the top undergrad offerings at LSE are MUCH MUCH more difficult to get in than their master’s degrees….half of people there in their masters would have never got in certain undergrad programs to begin with ….BSc Econometrics & Mathemarical Econ being one of them… so lets not compare apples to oranges….

That might be true. I don’t know. But it’s the same system. I had tons of friends who were undergrads and they had the same kinds of assignments (nearly none) and exams. Exams worked the same way.

The juniors studying abroad undergrad at lse thought it was way way less work than the top colleges they went to in the states,

Definitely a lot less work. That is very true. But then again your ability to get a good mark (grade) is dependent a lot of time on one single final exam….I had several single exam courses…with nothing else….no quizzes, BS projects…etc….either you know or you dont. You cant fake it with great group project grades and quizzes grades…So sure, a lot less work…but a heck of a lot more independent/tutorial work.

I'm not so sure. My kid at Oxford reports working harder than during junior year in high school (which I witnessed; that was serious work indeed).

There are weekly essays, problem sets, and tutorials with only one other student. Since these activities, if they are graded at all, don't 'count', there's less pressure. Some students may outsource the work, and over-rely on ChatGPT and study groups. But my kid reports working a lot of hours at high levels of concentration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am British, now living in the U.SA but graduated from University of London(Queen Mary College)

Can someone who has studied at both USA high school and UK university, please speak on their experience going from multchoice type questions (my USA kids mainly have multiple choice style questions for schoolwork at US public school) -vs- the essay style questions UK uni's use at end of year course exams (no multiple choice allowed).

Was it easy to make the transition in the two assessment styles?

Small world. My spouse was a lecturer at Queen Mary, and we used to live in Bow. I miss Passage to India in Mile End. Best curry ever.

My kids don't have many multiple choice tests in the US. Were you referring to SATs? That is such a small testing segment. They have a mix of math and humanities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In at Durham and St. Andrew’s, waiting on King’s. Staying in America…

Durham rates big time! Many on DCUM wouldn’t know. Highly highly highly respected in the UK. Way better than St Andrews.

St. Andrews is definitely massively overrated by US applicants. Not sure why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m british and I met my American husband when we were both on vacation in Spain. I would never ever advise my kid to start their career in the UK. It is so so so hard to financially get ahead there no matter how hard you work. it’s really a country to be mediocre in. I sometimes think Americans are blind to all the opportunity and wealth we have here and are really living in some fantasy about what real daily life is like in Europe. There is not a single day that goes by that I’m not grateful for the opportunity i’ve had in the US and the incredible education my kids get here.

I am British and I disagree. My friends who stayed in the UK have done well and have lives that are every bit as fulfilling as the ones here. And the education I got in the UK was every bit as good as the one you can get here.

It is true that wages are now much higher in the US. So no doubt your standard of living can be significantly better if you work here. But there are other metrics. Life expectancy, for example, is much higher in the UK and Europe, and that tells you something. No school shootings, much lower rates of death by traffic accidents, overdoses, violence. Much longer holidays and much better ways to use them than here. Universal healthcare.

I would be equally happy for my kids to stay in the UK as to return after university. But what I am most grateful for is their ability to experience both countries and make their own decisions based on their values. And where they find love, and other opportunities…

Among wealthy Americans, all of those stats are likely better than the UK (equal in the case of school shootings)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For US parents whose kids applied to both US and UK/EU universities.

If you kid planning on going abroad? If so, which US schools are you giving up offers to go abroad?

DS is going to Oxford. Was accepted at Stanford.

Oh, my. This is a big mistake. Like picking Cornell over Stanford…

I dont have a dog in the fight….but since the OP never mentioned the program, one can only assume you are comparing universities. Show me one World Ranking where Stanford is ranked higher than Oxford….

+1

Chances of a top, genius unhooked American kid getting into Stanford: 2% (give or take 1 percentage point).
Chances of a top, genius UK kid getting into Oxford: 60% (give or take 10 percentage points).
Chances that UK apologists it will protest this because they are nostalgic for Old Europe: 100%.

DP: "Unhooked" is the key word here. Holistic admission makes things more difficult for unhooked geniuses in the US than in the UK. Are you saying that's a good think? Different systems have different priorities. Oxford gives zero preference to athletes, children of donors, chess champions, etc. Some will argue that is a bug, others think that is a feature.

But I take your point that Stanford rejects a much higher percentage of applicants than Oxford does

No, you missed the point. Kid is an unhooked genius and is a top applicant, that is, has fantastic extracurriculars to boot. In other words, the best possible student for American holistic admissions (barring recruited athlete, first gen, and geographic diversity, which the UK also has the equivalent of).

Yes, I am saying that kid still has only a 2% admissions chance. That’s how hard it is. If you don’t believe me, it is because you are a Brit and don’t know Stanford or are from a previous generation when Oxford and Stanford could be in the same breadth.

The best UK student only has to be a genius and will get into Oxford. Easy. It’s simply not as competitive, period.

Actually, I get exactly what you are saying and I agree with you: Stanford is MUCH more competitive.

But I don't agree that those 'fantastic ECs' are anywhere as meaningful or real as you suspect they are. Most, in fact, are meaningless, and have limited (if any) impact on the intellectual life of the university community. I think the selection process is murky and suspect. I think if Stanford threw out their admitted class and took the next level below the school would be just as vibrant and impressive.

But given the massive numbers who apply to Stanford, they have to have some decision mechanism for selection and, given grade inflation and the relatively low difficulty of US standardized tests, they can't make that selection on academic criteria alone. I don't think the emphasis on non-academic accomplishments makes much sense, but it's probably as good as many.

The US has some very difficult standardized multiple choice tests - the American Mathematics Competition, then f=ma exam, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

if they're rich, they can go to a US R1 public school and take graduate courses early, even if the name doesn't sound as fancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do have to take into account curricular inflexibility as well. For example, if an American kid has already done multivariate and linear algebra in high school, the kid would have to repeat that work at Oxbridge and essentially waste the first year. Same for foreign languages not taught at Oxbridge from scratch. Already taken Russian in high school or as a DE? Start over at Oxbridge…

The true UK geniuses would therefore be far better off attending college in the US, which would start them at their actual level.

Of course, they wouldn’t get in, even with excellent extracurriculars, so they attend Oxbridge as a back up. Damned by both systems, unfortunately…

That’s not true at all

What process is there for skipping classes at Oxford, then? I see no departmental exams.