Has the Coalition for TJ (or any other groups) considered another lawsuit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C4TJ's case was a joke. It had no merit.

And yet it won at trial.

from a Trump-appointed judge, but once an actual lawyer had to hear the case, it got laughed out of court for a complete lack of merit

[Anonymous]

Yep, even the far-right partisan SCOTUS wouldn't touch that nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

They’ve sent out that same email before.

Really? When? I thought 2022 was the only time they sent that out.

1) In 2022, math teachers sent out the email to the spring Math 4 class, which would have been primarily the class of 2024 students, admitted before the admissions change.

The kids taking math 4 in the Spring of 2022 were primarily class of 2025 freshmen who came in with algebra 2.

Kids coming in with geometry take statistics in the fall and math 3 in the spring, then math 4 and 5 the following fall and spring.

Kids that come in with algebra 2 take statistics in the fall and math 4 in the spring. They frequently take math 5 over the summer so they can take calculus their sophomore year.

2) In 2012, math teachers complained about the "profound lack of preparation and readiness.”
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/620805/one-third-of-tj-freshmen-need-math-science-remediation/
“One-third of the freshmen at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology — the elite Alexandria magnet school ranked No. 2 in the nation — have been recommended for remediation in math, science or both, according to a letter obtained by The Washington Examiner.
Math teachers at “TJ” blamed slackened admissions standards and, in analyzing the admissions test, found that the typical math question reflects the standards taught to sixth-graders in Fairfax County Public Schools.”

Ah this is from the last attempt to "diversify" TJ
I'd forgotten they tried this before

Primarily class of 2024 along with the most advanced kids from class of 2025.

It was almost entirely class of 2025.
If you have to lie to support your position, you have a bad position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

The model allowed an overabundance of kids who knew how to take math and science tests but couldn't string together two sentences and sure as hell couldn't articulate their thoughts in front of a group. Try taking those skills and lack thereof to 99% of jobs in the workforce. I'd rather have an A- math kid with A- social skills than an A+ math kid with D social skills. You need a balance of both in life. Grace can master calculus but can't find her way to the bus stop. Hard pass.

It mostly shut out top students from schools where parents couldn't spend $20k on elite prep, where kids had the test answers drilled into them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

Could it be the TJ math faculty that is actually failing? Once faced with students that are not propped up by outside “enrichment,” their math program is maybe not up to snuff?

Either that outside enrichment is as hollow and meaningless as you claim and the current students are really better than previous students (as you claim) or that outside enrichment was in fact enriching them.

The fact of the matter is that too many of those kids were getting a very thin understanding of their math courses at their middle schools. Some middle schools teach a very superficial version of some subjects because there simply isn't a critical mass of students that are prepared to tackle a more in depth curriculum. That is why you end up with feeder schools.

And if the math program at TJ is really as shoddy as you think then why are you trying so goddam hard to get racial proportionality at the school?

We are trying to get smart kids from all over the county, even kids who weren’t lucky enough to be born into affluent families, attend feeder schools, or get outside enrichment.

That's why they need a much more robust application packet, including standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, achievements, consideration of math level, courses taken, SOL scores, etc. With a bit of training in how to read the applications, it would be much easier to find kids who are truly talented, but less advantaged. It would also be easy to find and eliminate the preppers. A kid at a high FARMS school who still has high test scores (not sky high, but solid), strong teacher recommendations, and Geometry in 8th, but "worse" achievements or less polished essays should come across as a smart, but less privileged kid who belongs at TJ. A kid from a wealthier school with sky high test scores, high math level, very polished essays, but somewhat mediocre recommendations and achievements that do not match the test scores or rest of the packet should come across as a privileged prepper.

Requiring less information just makes the process random. More information with an eye to ferret out prepping and find those diamonds in the rough would ensure that the right kids are admitted to TJ.

I agree more information is better than less but implementing standardized exams and then disregarding test scores because you think you can identify privileged preppers if their recommendations don't match their test scores seems like you don't actually want to use test scores and just use recommendations.

I don't know if we should be looking for diamonds in the rough. TJ isn't built to polish diamonds in the rough. You are expected to hit the ground running and the rigor is there from the beginning. It is not a nursery for talent, it is a crucible.

A student with high test scores is a student with high test scores. Peer reviewed studies show that SAT scores are equally predictive of poor student's academic achievement as it is of wealthy student's academic achievement. We might assume some of this is because everybody "preps" for the SAT but it's weeks of prep not years. Those years of enrichment are actual learning, those kids have higher academic and cognitive ability than their less enriched peers. You might want to provide some consideration for the kids that couldn't afford the $3-5K/year it costs to get this enrichment but I don't see why a kid that was coached to high levels is any less qualified to operate at those high levels than a kid who never achieved those levels to begin with.

This is what I don't get. There is this sentiment that getting academic enrichment is somehow unfair even between families of similar means. If we are comparing FARM students and one students does extremely well because their family makes painful sacrifices to send them to enrichment, why would we want to discount their achievement because of that? If we are comparing 2 students at cooper (almost all wealthy) and one kids spends his weeknights and weekends studying to improve their academic ability and another spends his time on a high end travel basketball team, why would we penalize that kids who devoted all his time to study in the selection process of an academic institution? Haven't we already corrected for whatever unfairness there might be by using a quota system by elementary of middle school?

I didn't explain myself well. I don't advocate ignoring test scores in favor of recommendations. I do think that when the profile as a whole doesn't make sense, they take that into account. If a kid's test scores suggest that he's highly gifted and he's great at bragging about himself in the essay, but the actual achievements and teacher's view of the kid suggest a pretty average kid, then the test scores should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I were in charge, I would modify the process like this:
-Only 1% allocation per middle school, based on zoned school and not attending school (or better yet, eliminate MS AAP centers and instead have each school be a LLIV).
-To be eligible, kids need *all* honors and at least a 3.75 GPA. They also need to meet some baseline benchmarks for their 7th and 8th grade SOLs (offers rescinded if the 8th grade scores aren't met). It would be something like pass advanced in 7th and 8th grade math for all kids. 480+ in all other SOLs for both 7th and 8th grade. For those in the M7H in 7th and Algebra I in 8th, I'd require a 550+ SOL.
-All kids would take the PSAT 8/9. Prep materials are plentiful and free. There's also a limit to how much prep will increase one's score.
-Being in Algebra I honors in 8th would be a negative. It wouldn't be an insurmountable negative, and kids who otherwise have amazing profiles would still be admitted. Ideally, TJ would return to only having 20-30 kids enter with only Algebra I.
-Reinstitute teacher recommendations
-Give heavy weighting to the exceptional accomplishments. AIME qualification, Mathcounts State, very high placement in science olympiad, placement in USAPHO, USABO, USACO, etc. should be worth a lot
-Eliminate experience factor points, but have one of the essays be about whatever hardships or obstacles the kid needed to overcome..

Reviewers are not great at distinguishing between high tests scores from gifted kids and high test scores from "prepped" kids, because for all intents and purposes they are both operating at the gifted level. This is particularly true at the far right side of the curve. Things like AMC8 and AMC10 (used for AIME, which is yet another math test) are entirely test based and frankly is more influenced by long term "prepping" and you seem OK with accepting those results.

I am not sure that the physics, chemistry, and biology olympiads are really something middle schoolers do. These might be high school competitions.

I think points for FARM is better than making students talk about how poor they are.

If you require advance pass in math and 480 in all other SOLs then there will be more than a few elementary school boundaries with no eligible students. I believe there are middle schools where none of the students achieve an advance pass on geometry.

I do like your PSAT idea. The more transparent the test, the better. The notion of secret tests like Quant Q is stupid as fck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

The model allowed an overabundance of kids who knew how to take math and science tests but couldn't string together two sentences and sure as hell couldn't articulate their thoughts in front of a group. Try taking those skills and lack thereof to 99% of jobs in the workforce. I'd rather have an A- math kid with A- social skills than an A+ math kid with D social skills. You need a balance of both in life. Grace can master calculus but can't find her way to the bus stop. Hard pass.

It mostly shut out top students from schools where parents couldn't spend $20k on elite prep, where kids had the test answers drilled into them.

If you lose to Kennesaw State by 2 points, you should have prepared better to make sure you won handily. There is no exact science for these things. Here's how you get in...have straight A's and be mildly interesting. All of that is within your control. The rest is playing victim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

The model allowed an overabundance of kids who knew how to take math and science tests but couldn't string together two sentences and sure as hell couldn't articulate their thoughts in front of a group. Try taking those skills and lack thereof to 99% of jobs in the workforce. I'd rather have an A- math kid with A- social skills than an A+ math kid with D social skills. You need a balance of both in life. Grace can master calculus but can't find her way to the bus stop. Hard pass.

So you want social skills to be part of the admissions criteria to a math and science school?
And you think the new method somehow selects for social skills?

Also there are virtually no students that can do calculus in 8th grade but can't find their way to the bus stop. That sort of autism is extremely rare.

Smart kids are generally pretty smart at a lot of things, including finding the bus stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid was initially passed over for AAP in third grade. Now at TJ playing multiple sports with straight A's. Probably one of a dozen out of 500-plus. There's no one formula for capturing the best kids. Some of life is luck and positioning yourself to climb the ladder. Work smarter, not harder.

The AAP selection process is not great. The HOPE score counts fo0r too much and is too subjective.

There are more than a dozen kids getting straight As in every class. There are not a lot of kids in multiple sports.

There is no one formula that will capture ALL the best kids but there are definitely formulas that selects the preponderance of the best kids. The current method is selcting something close to a random sample of the applicant pool. We are literally relying on TJ's reputation for rigor and self-selection by the applicants to maintain standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C4TJ's case was a joke. It had no merit.

And yet it won at trial.

from a Trump-appointed judge, but once an actual lawyer had to hear the case, it got laughed out of court for a complete lack of merit

Claude Hilton was appointed by Reagan.

And what makes you say the case got laughed out of court?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yep, even the far-right partisan SCOTUS wouldn't touch that nonsense.

Did you read the dissent to the denial of certiori?

It is likely that the supreme court would have struck down the new admissions process but this was too soon on the heels of SFFA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

Could it be the TJ math faculty that is actually failing? Once faced with students that are not propped up by outside “enrichment,” their math program is maybe not up to snuff?

Either that outside enrichment is as hollow and meaningless as you claim and the current students are really better than previous students (as you claim) or that outside enrichment was in fact enriching them.

The fact of the matter is that too many of those kids were getting a very thin understanding of their math courses at their middle schools. Some middle schools teach a very superficial version of some subjects because there simply isn't a critical mass of students that are prepared to tackle a more in depth curriculum. That is why you end up with feeder schools.

And if the math program at TJ is really as shoddy as you think then why are you trying so goddam hard to get racial proportionality at the school?

We are trying to get smart kids from all over the county, even kids who weren’t lucky enough to be born into affluent families, attend feeder schools, or get outside enrichment.

That's why they need a much more robust application packet, including standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, achievements, consideration of math level, courses taken, SOL scores, etc. With a bit of training in how to read the applications, it would be much easier to find kids who are truly talented, but less advantaged. It would also be easy to find and eliminate the preppers. A kid at a high FARMS school who still has high test scores (not sky high, but solid), strong teacher recommendations, and Geometry in 8th, but "worse" achievements or less polished essays should come across as a smart, but less privileged kid who belongs at TJ. A kid from a wealthier school with sky high test scores, high math level, very polished essays, but somewhat mediocre recommendations and achievements that do not match the test scores or rest of the packet should come across as a privileged prepper.

Requiring less information just makes the process random. More information with an eye to ferret out prepping and find those diamonds in the rough would ensure that the right kids are admitted to TJ.

I agree more information is better than less but implementing standardized exams and then disregarding test scores because you think you can identify privileged preppers if their recommendations don't match their test scores seems like you don't actually want to use test scores and just use recommendations.

I don't know if we should be looking for diamonds in the rough. TJ isn't built to polish diamonds in the rough. You are expected to hit the ground running and the rigor is there from the beginning. It is not a nursery for talent, it is a crucible.

A student with high test scores is a student with high test scores. Peer reviewed studies show that SAT scores are equally predictive of poor student's academic achievement as it is of wealthy student's academic achievement. We might assume some of this is because everybody "preps" for the SAT but it's weeks of prep not years. Those years of enrichment are actual learning, those kids have higher academic and cognitive ability than their less enriched peers. You might want to provide some consideration for the kids that couldn't afford the $3-5K/year it costs to get this enrichment but I don't see why a kid that was coached to high levels is any less qualified to operate at those high levels than a kid who never achieved those levels to begin with.

This is what I don't get. There is this sentiment that getting academic enrichment is somehow unfair even between families of similar means. If we are comparing FARM students and one students does extremely well because their family makes painful sacrifices to send them to enrichment, why would we want to discount their achievement because of that? If we are comparing 2 students at cooper (almost all wealthy) and one kids spends his weeknights and weekends studying to improve their academic ability and another spends his time on a high end travel basketball team, why would we penalize that kids who devoted all his time to study in the selection process of an academic institution? Haven't we already corrected for whatever unfairness there might be by using a quota system by elementary of middle school?

I didn't explain myself well. I don't advocate ignoring test scores in favor of recommendations. I do think that when the profile as a whole doesn't make sense, they take that into account. If a kid's test scores suggest that he's highly gifted and he's great at bragging about himself in the essay, but the actual achievements and teacher's view of the kid suggest a pretty average kid, then the test scores should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I were in charge, I would modify the process like this:
-Only 1% allocation per middle school, based on zoned school and not attending school (or better yet, eliminate MS AAP centers and instead have each school be a LLIV).
-To be eligible, kids need *all* honors and at least a 3.75 GPA. They also need to meet some baseline benchmarks for their 7th and 8th grade SOLs (offers rescinded if the 8th grade scores aren't met). It would be something like pass advanced in 7th and 8th grade math for all kids. 480+ in all other SOLs for both 7th and 8th grade. For those in the M7H in 7th and Algebra I in 8th, I'd require a 550+ SOL.
-All kids would take the PSAT 8/9. Prep materials are plentiful and free. There's also a limit to how much prep will increase one's score.
-Being in Algebra I honors in 8th would be a negative. It wouldn't be an insurmountable negative, and kids who otherwise have amazing profiles would still be admitted. Ideally, TJ would return to only having 20-30 kids enter with only Algebra I.
-Reinstitute teacher recommendations
-Give heavy weighting to the exceptional accomplishments. AIME qualification, Mathcounts State, very high placement in science olympiad, placement in USAPHO, USABO, USACO, etc. should be worth a lot
-Eliminate experience factor points, but have one of the essays be about whatever hardships or obstacles the kid needed to overcome..

Reviewers are not great at distinguishing between high tests scores from gifted kids and high test scores from "prepped" kids, because for all intents and purposes they are both operating at the gifted level. This is particularly true at the far right side of the curve. Things like AMC8 and AMC10 (used for AIME, which is yet another math test) are entirely test based and frankly is more influenced by long term "prepping" and you seem OK with accepting those results.

I am not sure that the physics, chemistry, and biology olympiads are really something middle schoolers do. These might be high school competitions.

I think points for FARM is better than making students talk about how poor they are.

If you require advance pass in math and 480 in all other SOLs then there will be more than a few elementary school boundaries with no eligible students. I believe there are middle schools where none of the students achieve an advance pass on geometry.

I do like your PSAT idea. The more transparent the test, the better. The notion of secret tests like Quant Q is stupid as fck.

PP here. Things like AMC 10 certainly are influenced by "long term prepping." Nonetheless, kids won't reach AIME in middle school without being phenominal at math. Many kids long term prep like crazy and still fall short. Giving weight to these contests is one way to skim the kids off of the top at schools like Longfellow. You're correct that the physics/dhem/bio olympiads are high school contests. So is AMC 10. Any kids qualifying for the 2nd round in 8th grade are exceptional and exactly the types of kids TJ wants. I bet only around 20 8th graders maximum in the TJ catchment areas are qualifying for AIME or any olympiad.

FARMS status isn't the only hardship. An essay would give more perspective into every applicant and whatever hardships they've needed to overcome.

Yes, there might be schools with no eligible students. That's fine. It's better to sacrifice a little geographic diversity than it is to set kids up for failure at TJ. SOLs are low level tests. Kids who lack that level of mastery will be eaten alive at TJ. There's no point in admitting kids who are likely to flunk out and return to the base school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

Could it be the TJ math faculty that is actually failing? Once faced with students that are not propped up by outside “enrichment,” their math program is maybe not up to snuff?

Either that outside enrichment is as hollow and meaningless as you claim and the current students are really better than previous students (as you claim) or that outside enrichment was in fact enriching them.

The fact of the matter is that too many of those kids were getting a very thin understanding of their math courses at their middle schools. Some middle schools teach a very superficial version of some subjects because there simply isn't a critical mass of students that are prepared to tackle a more in depth curriculum. That is why you end up with feeder schools.

And if the math program at TJ is really as shoddy as you think then why are you trying so goddam hard to get racial proportionality at the school?

We are trying to get smart kids from all over the county, even kids who weren’t lucky enough to be born into affluent families, attend feeder schools, or get outside enrichment.

That's why they need a much more robust application packet, including standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, achievements, consideration of math level, courses taken, SOL scores, etc. With a bit of training in how to read the applications, it would be much easier to find kids who are truly talented, but less advantaged. It would also be easy to find and eliminate the preppers. A kid at a high FARMS school who still has high test scores (not sky high, but solid), strong teacher recommendations, and Geometry in 8th, but "worse" achievements or less polished essays should come across as a smart, but less privileged kid who belongs at TJ. A kid from a wealthier school with sky high test scores, high math level, very polished essays, but somewhat mediocre recommendations and achievements that do not match the test scores or rest of the packet should come across as a privileged prepper.

Requiring less information just makes the process random. More information with an eye to ferret out prepping and find those diamonds in the rough would ensure that the right kids are admitted to TJ.

I agree more information is better than less but implementing standardized exams and then disregarding test scores because you think you can identify privileged preppers if their recommendations don't match their test scores seems like you don't actually want to use test scores and just use recommendations.

I don't know if we should be looking for diamonds in the rough. TJ isn't built to polish diamonds in the rough. You are expected to hit the ground running and the rigor is there from the beginning. It is not a nursery for talent, it is a crucible.

A student with high test scores is a student with high test scores. Peer reviewed studies show that SAT scores are equally predictive of poor student's academic achievement as it is of wealthy student's academic achievement. We might assume some of this is because everybody "preps" for the SAT but it's weeks of prep not years. Those years of enrichment are actual learning, those kids have higher academic and cognitive ability than their less enriched peers. You might want to provide some consideration for the kids that couldn't afford the $3-5K/year it costs to get this enrichment but I don't see why a kid that was coached to high levels is any less qualified to operate at those high levels than a kid who never achieved those levels to begin with.

This is what I don't get. There is this sentiment that getting academic enrichment is somehow unfair even between families of similar means. If we are comparing FARM students and one students does extremely well because their family makes painful sacrifices to send them to enrichment, why would we want to discount their achievement because of that? If we are comparing 2 students at cooper (almost all wealthy) and one kids spends his weeknights and weekends studying to improve their academic ability and another spends his time on a high end travel basketball team, why would we penalize that kids who devoted all his time to study in the selection process of an academic institution? Haven't we already corrected for whatever unfairness there might be by using a quota system by elementary of middle school?

I didn't explain myself well. I don't advocate ignoring test scores in favor of recommendations. I do think that when the profile as a whole doesn't make sense, they take that into account. If a kid's test scores suggest that he's highly gifted and he's great at bragging about himself in the essay, but the actual achievements and teacher's view of the kid suggest a pretty average kid, then the test scores should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I were in charge, I would modify the process like this:
-Only 1% allocation per middle school, based on zoned school and not attending school (or better yet, eliminate MS AAP centers and instead have each school be a LLIV).
-To be eligible, kids need *all* honors and at least a 3.75 GPA. They also need to meet some baseline benchmarks for their 7th and 8th grade SOLs (offers rescinded if the 8th grade scores aren't met). It would be something like pass advanced in 7th and 8th grade math for all kids. 480+ in all other SOLs for both 7th and 8th grade. For those in the M7H in 7th and Algebra I in 8th, I'd require a 550+ SOL.
-All kids would take the PSAT 8/9. Prep materials are plentiful and free. There's also a limit to how much prep will increase one's score.
-Being in Algebra I honors in 8th would be a negative. It wouldn't be an insurmountable negative, and kids who otherwise have amazing profiles would still be admitted. Ideally, TJ would return to only having 20-30 kids enter with only Algebra I.
-Reinstitute teacher recommendations
-Give heavy weighting to the exceptional accomplishments. AIME qualification, Mathcounts State, very high placement in science olympiad, placement in USAPHO, USABO, USACO, etc. should be worth a lot
-Eliminate experience factor points, but have one of the essays be about whatever hardships or obstacles the kid needed to overcome..

Reviewers are not great at distinguishing between high tests scores from gifted kids and high test scores from "prepped" kids, because for all intents and purposes they are both operating at the gifted level. This is particularly true at the far right side of the curve. Things like AMC8 and AMC10 (used for AIME, which is yet another math test) are entirely test based and frankly is more influenced by long term "prepping" and you seem OK with accepting those results.

I am not sure that the physics, chemistry, and biology olympiads are really something middle schoolers do. These might be high school competitions.

I think points for FARM is better than making students talk about how poor they are.

If you require advance pass in math and 480 in all other SOLs then there will be more than a few elementary school boundaries with no eligible students. I believe there are middle schools where none of the students achieve an advance pass on geometry.

I do like your PSAT idea. The more transparent the test, the better. The notion of secret tests like Quant Q is stupid as fck.

PP here. Things like AMC 10 certainly are influenced by "long term prepping." Nonetheless, kids won't reach AIME in middle school without being phenominal at math. Many kids long term prep like crazy and still fall short. Giving weight to these contests is one way to skim the kids off of the top at schools like Longfellow. You're correct that the physics/dhem/bio olympiads are high school contests. So is AMC 10. Any kids qualifying for the 2nd round in 8th grade are exceptional and exactly the types of kids TJ wants. I bet only around 20 8th graders maximum in the TJ catchment areas are qualifying for AIME or any olympiad.

FARMS status isn't the only hardship. An essay would give more perspective into every applicant and whatever hardships they've needed to overcome.

Yes, there might be schools with no eligible students. That's fine. It's better to sacrifice a little geographic diversity than it is to set kids up for failure at TJ. SOLs are low level tests. Kids who lack that level of mastery will be eaten alive at TJ. There's no point in admitting kids who are likely to flunk out and return to the base school.

A lot of 8th graders take AMC 10. The top 1% of AMC test takers advance. If you made advancement in the AMC a hook for TJ, I'd guess you'd see over 100 on the AMC8.

I don't have strong feelings about how you identify FARM students but considering we already have that information; I don't know why we wouldn't use it.
The essay can be used to discuss other things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

Also, if you don't take students from those schools, you will not achieve the diversity the school board seeks.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

Could it be the TJ math faculty that is actually failing? Once faced with students that are not propped up by outside “enrichment,” their math program is maybe not up to snuff?

Either that outside enrichment is as hollow and meaningless as you claim and the current students are really better than previous students (as you claim) or that outside enrichment was in fact enriching them.

The fact of the matter is that too many of those kids were getting a very thin understanding of their math courses at their middle schools. Some middle schools teach a very superficial version of some subjects because there simply isn't a critical mass of students that are prepared to tackle a more in depth curriculum. That is why you end up with feeder schools.

And if the math program at TJ is really as shoddy as you think then why are you trying so goddam hard to get racial proportionality at the school?

We are trying to get smart kids from all over the county, even kids who weren’t lucky enough to be born into affluent families, attend feeder schools, or get outside enrichment.

That's why they need a much more robust application packet, including standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, achievements, consideration of math level, courses taken, SOL scores, etc. With a bit of training in how to read the applications, it would be much easier to find kids who are truly talented, but less advantaged. It would also be easy to find and eliminate the preppers. A kid at a high FARMS school who still has high test scores (not sky high, but solid), strong teacher recommendations, and Geometry in 8th, but "worse" achievements or less polished essays should come across as a smart, but less privileged kid who belongs at TJ. A kid from a wealthier school with sky high test scores, high math level, very polished essays, but somewhat mediocre recommendations and achievements that do not match the test scores or rest of the packet should come across as a privileged prepper.

Requiring less information just makes the process random. More information with an eye to ferret out prepping and find those diamonds in the rough would ensure that the right kids are admitted to TJ.

I agree more information is better than less but implementing standardized exams and then disregarding test scores because you think you can identify privileged preppers if their recommendations don't match their test scores seems like you don't actually want to use test scores and just use recommendations.

I don't know if we should be looking for diamonds in the rough. TJ isn't built to polish diamonds in the rough. You are expected to hit the ground running and the rigor is there from the beginning. It is not a nursery for talent, it is a crucible.

A student with high test scores is a student with high test scores. Peer reviewed studies show that SAT scores are equally predictive of poor student's academic achievement as it is of wealthy student's academic achievement. We might assume some of this is because everybody "preps" for the SAT but it's weeks of prep not years. Those years of enrichment are actual learning, those kids have higher academic and cognitive ability than their less enriched peers. You might want to provide some consideration for the kids that couldn't afford the $3-5K/year it costs to get this enrichment but I don't see why a kid that was coached to high levels is any less qualified to operate at those high levels than a kid who never achieved those levels to begin with.

This is what I don't get. There is this sentiment that getting academic enrichment is somehow unfair even between families of similar means. If we are comparing FARM students and one students does extremely well because their family makes painful sacrifices to send them to enrichment, why would we want to discount their achievement because of that? If we are comparing 2 students at cooper (almost all wealthy) and one kids spends his weeknights and weekends studying to improve their academic ability and another spends his time on a high end travel basketball team, why would we penalize that kids who devoted all his time to study in the selection process of an academic institution? Haven't we already corrected for whatever unfairness there might be by using a quota system by elementary of middle school?

I didn't explain myself well. I don't advocate ignoring test scores in favor of recommendations. I do think that when the profile as a whole doesn't make sense, they take that into account. If a kid's test scores suggest that he's highly gifted and he's great at bragging about himself in the essay, but the actual achievements and teacher's view of the kid suggest a pretty average kid, then the test scores should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I were in charge, I would modify the process like this:
-Only 1% allocation per middle school, based on zoned school and not attending school (or better yet, eliminate MS AAP centers and instead have each school be a LLIV).
-To be eligible, kids need *all* honors and at least a 3.75 GPA. They also need to meet some baseline benchmarks for their 7th and 8th grade SOLs (offers rescinded if the 8th grade scores aren't met). It would be something like pass advanced in 7th and 8th grade math for all kids. 480+ in all other SOLs for both 7th and 8th grade. For those in the M7H in 7th and Algebra I in 8th, I'd require a 550+ SOL.
-All kids would take the PSAT 8/9. Prep materials are plentiful and free. There's also a limit to how much prep will increase one's score.
-Being in Algebra I honors in 8th would be a negative. It wouldn't be an insurmountable negative, and kids who otherwise have amazing profiles would still be admitted. Ideally, TJ would return to only having 20-30 kids enter with only Algebra I.
-Reinstitute teacher recommendations
-Give heavy weighting to the exceptional accomplishments. AIME qualification, Mathcounts State, very high placement in science olympiad, placement in USAPHO, USABO, USACO, etc. should be worth a lot
-Eliminate experience factor points, but have one of the essays be about whatever hardships or obstacles the kid needed to overcome..

Reviewers are not great at distinguishing between high tests scores from gifted kids and high test scores from "prepped" kids, because for all intents and purposes they are both operating at the gifted level. This is particularly true at the far right side of the curve. Things like AMC8 and AMC10 (used for AIME, which is yet another math test) are entirely test based and frankly is more influenced by long term "prepping" and you seem OK with accepting those results.

I am not sure that the physics, chemistry, and biology olympiads are really something middle schoolers do. These might be high school competitions.

I think points for FARM is better than making students talk about how poor they are.

If you require advance pass in math and 480 in all other SOLs then there will be more than a few elementary school boundaries with no eligible students. I believe there are middle schools where none of the students achieve an advance pass on geometry.

I do like your PSAT idea. The more transparent the test, the better. The notion of secret tests like Quant Q is stupid as fck.

PP here. Things like AMC 10 certainly are influenced by "long term prepping." Nonetheless, kids won't reach AIME in middle school without being phenominal at math. Many kids long term prep like crazy and still fall short. Giving weight to these contests is one way to skim the kids off of the top at schools like Longfellow. You're correct that the physics/dhem/bio olympiads are high school contests. So is AMC 10. Any kids qualifying for the 2nd round in 8th grade are exceptional and exactly the types of kids TJ wants. I bet only around 20 8th graders maximum in the TJ catchment areas are qualifying for AIME or any olympiad.

FARMS status isn't the only hardship. An essay would give more perspective into every applicant and whatever hardships they've needed to overcome.

Yes, there might be schools with no eligible students. That's fine. It's better to sacrifice a little geographic diversity than it is to set kids up for failure at TJ. SOLs are low level tests. Kids who lack that level of mastery will be eaten alive at TJ. There's no point in admitting kids who are likely to flunk out and return to the base school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

They’ve sent out that same email before.

Really? When? I thought 2022 was the only time they sent that out.

1) In 2022, math teachers sent out the email to the spring Math 4 class, which would have been primarily the class of 2024 students, admitted before the admissions change.

The kids taking math 4 in the Spring of 2022 were primarily class of 2025 freshmen who came in with algebra 2.

Kids coming in with geometry take statistics in the fall and math 3 in the spring, then math 4 and 5 the following fall and spring.

Kids that come in with algebra 2 take statistics in the fall and math 4 in the spring. They frequently take math 5 over the summer so they can take calculus their sophomore year.

2) In 2012, math teachers complained about the "profound lack of preparation and readiness.”
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/620805/one-third-of-tj-freshmen-need-math-science-remediation/
“One-third of the freshmen at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology — the elite Alexandria magnet school ranked No. 2 in the nation — have been recommended for remediation in math, science or both, according to a letter obtained by The Washington Examiner.
Math teachers at “TJ” blamed slackened admissions standards and, in analyzing the admissions test, found that the typical math question reflects the standards taught to sixth-graders in Fairfax County Public Schools.”

Ah this is from the last attempt to "diversify" TJ
I'd forgotten they tried this before

Primarily class of 2024 along with the most advanced kids from class of 2025.

It was almost entirely class of 2025.
If you have to lie to support your position, you have a bad position.

Huh? It was mostly class of 24 plus the most advanced kids from 25.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Academic Talent isn't relevant. You don't need to be the highest scoring student in the county to benefit from a better equipped lab.

Academic talent is the ONLY thing that is relevant. They are the only ones that need those better equipped labs and the higher level math and science courses.

WTF is your average kid going to do with a quantum physics and optics lab?
Why does the average kid need access to linear algebra (which is actually pretty widely available throughout FCPS), concrete math, number theory.

Sending a few kids that are going to be taking AP Calculus and AP Physics in their senior year is fine but about 1/3 of the kids at TJ are on this track right now. Most of those kids are getting nothing out of TJ that they would not get at their base school.

There is a huge amount of space between “average” and the tiny number of truly gifted students.

Advanced kids from around the region should have access to TJ, not just kids from a handful of wealthy feeders.

I agree, and their argument just doesn't hold up. Sure, kids whose parents have spent $20k on test prep do well on tests, but hardly matters since the kids being selected now are the very top students and typically surprass the prepsters before graduating.

Nobody spent $20K on test prep. Don't be ridiculous.

PSAT scores down 120 points at TJ and pretty much ONLY TJ.
NMSF down 50% at TJ
SOL advance pass down across the board at TJ
The math department at TJ had to send out an email to the math 4 class telling them their final exam test results were the worst they have ever seen.

Could it be the TJ math faculty that is actually failing? Once faced with students that are not propped up by outside “enrichment,” their math program is maybe not up to snuff?

Either that outside enrichment is as hollow and meaningless as you claim and the current students are really better than previous students (as you claim) or that outside enrichment was in fact enriching them.

The fact of the matter is that too many of those kids were getting a very thin understanding of their math courses at their middle schools. Some middle schools teach a very superficial version of some subjects because there simply isn't a critical mass of students that are prepared to tackle a more in depth curriculum. That is why you end up with feeder schools.

And if the math program at TJ is really as shoddy as you think then why are you trying so goddam hard to get racial proportionality at the school?

We are trying to get smart kids from all over the county, even kids who weren’t lucky enough to be born into affluent families, attend feeder schools, or get outside enrichment.

That's why they need a much more robust application packet, including standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, achievements, consideration of math level, courses taken, SOL scores, etc. With a bit of training in how to read the applications, it would be much easier to find kids who are truly talented, but less advantaged. It would also be easy to find and eliminate the preppers. A kid at a high FARMS school who still has high test scores (not sky high, but solid), strong teacher recommendations, and Geometry in 8th, but "worse" achievements or less polished essays should come across as a smart, but less privileged kid who belongs at TJ. A kid from a wealthier school with sky high test scores, high math level, very polished essays, but somewhat mediocre recommendations and achievements that do not match the test scores or rest of the packet should come across as a privileged prepper.

Requiring less information just makes the process random. More information with an eye to ferret out prepping and find those diamonds in the rough would ensure that the right kids are admitted to TJ.

I agree more information is better than less but implementing standardized exams and then disregarding test scores because you think you can identify privileged preppers if their recommendations don't match their test scores seems like you don't actually want to use test scores and just use recommendations.

I don't know if we should be looking for diamonds in the rough. TJ isn't built to polish diamonds in the rough. You are expected to hit the ground running and the rigor is there from the beginning. It is not a nursery for talent, it is a crucible.

A student with high test scores is a student with high test scores. Peer reviewed studies show that SAT scores are equally predictive of poor student's academic achievement as it is of wealthy student's academic achievement. We might assume some of this is because everybody "preps" for the SAT but it's weeks of prep not years. Those years of enrichment are actual learning, those kids have higher academic and cognitive ability than their less enriched peers. You might want to provide some consideration for the kids that couldn't afford the $3-5K/year it costs to get this enrichment but I don't see why a kid that was coached to high levels is any less qualified to operate at those high levels than a kid who never achieved those levels to begin with.

This is what I don't get. There is this sentiment that getting academic enrichment is somehow unfair even between families of similar means. If we are comparing FARM students and one students does extremely well because their family makes painful sacrifices to send them to enrichment, why would we want to discount their achievement because of that? If we are comparing 2 students at cooper (almost all wealthy) and one kids spends his weeknights and weekends studying to improve their academic ability and another spends his time on a high end travel basketball team, why would we penalize that kids who devoted all his time to study in the selection process of an academic institution? Haven't we already corrected for whatever unfairness there might be by using a quota system by elementary of middle school?

I didn't explain myself well. I don't advocate ignoring test scores in favor of recommendations. I do think that when the profile as a whole doesn't make sense, they take that into account. If a kid's test scores suggest that he's highly gifted and he's great at bragging about himself in the essay, but the actual achievements and teacher's view of the kid suggest a pretty average kid, then the test scores should be taken with a grain of salt.

If I were in charge, I would modify the process like this:
-Only 1% allocation per middle school, based on zoned school and not attending school (or better yet, eliminate MS AAP centers and instead have each school be a LLIV).
-To be eligible, kids need *all* honors and at least a 3.75 GPA. They also need to meet some baseline benchmarks for their 7th and 8th grade SOLs (offers rescinded if the 8th grade scores aren't met). It would be something like pass advanced in 7th and 8th grade math for all kids. 480+ in all other SOLs for both 7th and 8th grade. For those in the M7H in 7th and Algebra I in 8th, I'd require a 550+ SOL.
-All kids would take the PSAT 8/9. Prep materials are plentiful and free. There's also a limit to how much prep will increase one's score.
-Being in Algebra I honors in 8th would be a negative. It wouldn't be an insurmountable negative, and kids who otherwise have amazing profiles would still be admitted. Ideally, TJ would return to only having 20-30 kids enter with only Algebra I.
-Reinstitute teacher recommendations
-Give heavy weighting to the exceptional accomplishments. AIME qualification, Mathcounts State, very high placement in science olympiad, placement in USAPHO, USABO, USACO, etc. should be worth a lot
-Eliminate experience factor points, but have one of the essays be about whatever hardships or obstacles the kid needed to overcome..

Reviewers are not great at distinguishing between high tests scores from gifted kids and high test scores from "prepped" kids, because for all intents and purposes they are both operating at the gifted level. This is particularly true at the far right side of the curve. Things like AMC8 and AMC10 (used for AIME, which is yet another math test) are entirely test based and frankly is more influenced by long term "prepping" and you seem OK with accepting those results.

I am not sure that the physics, chemistry, and biology olympiads are really something middle schoolers do. These might be high school competitions.

I think points for FARM is better than making students talk about how poor they are.

If you require advance pass in math and 480 in all other SOLs then there will be more than a few elementary school boundaries with no eligible students. I believe there are middle schools where none of the students achieve an advance pass on geometry.

I do like your PSAT idea. The more transparent the test, the better. The notion of secret tests like Quant Q is stupid as fck.

I like the current system. Sure, there's a slight drop in scores largely because of the pandemic but TJ overall seems stronger than ever now.