How to change Big Law culture?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

I would have a serious talk with him about whether he is willing to quit and move somewhere more low key. Your kids are still small. They will grow up in a flash. Is he spending quality time with the kids? Hard to put a price on that.

[Anonymous]

AI is going to have you all out of the job soon anyway. Only the top thinkers and partners will stay in lucrative employment. So don’t worry about it too much

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Ok well with an HHI of a minimum of 700k you must be saving a LOT of money.

[Anonymous]

My husband leaving big law and going in house was the best thing to ever happen to us. Really. He makes 1/2 of what he would have but does about 1/4 of the work. And the entire culture is different— no more constant fire drills, interrupted plans, stress.

I don’t believe you can change the culture. A partner would have the most ability to do this but he’s only one of several, in an industry that is built around clients paying enormous amounts of money for them to be available 24/7. I just don’t think it’s realistic.

FWIW, I’m also a lawyer, and I chose the government over a firm. I’m making way, way less than my peer group. I do not care. My life is tremendously less stressful. And now that I have kids, my time (and minimizing unnecessary stress) is that much more important to me.

I’d have a talk with him about your family and future. A lot of people cannot see that there’s a different way of life out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

In-house at banks and tech companies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

In-house at banks and tech companies

+1 in-house and fed govt. Much more 9-5 and much lower pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

In-house at banks and tech companies

Neither of those options hire many mid-tier litigation partners. It's much harder for a run of the mill big law litigator to land those sorts of exit options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are probably afforded a very comfortable life as a result of your husband being a partner at Big Law. lots of people work just as hard or harder and don't have a fraction to show for it as your husband. He can move inhouse and take a pay cut which I'm sure you don't want him to do.

OP - Well sure he makes a lot of money but I don't think the stress is worth it. I would be FINE with him leaving for an in house job. He seems to think most in house jobs doing what he does has the same amount of stress for less money so he might as well stay in big law.

I work full time as well, make 6 figures. On top of that I am the default parent 99% of the time to 3 young kids and keep our house together (bills, maintenance, laundry, food, etc).

Nope. He just likes the prestige and money, and avoiding child care and household maintenance.

You aren't really venting about Big Law; you are venting about your DH.

BINGO. If DH didn’t want to be in Big Law, he wouldn’t be. But good for you for making 6 figures! Now figure out how to get the marriage you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

In-house at banks and tech companies

Neither of those options hire many mid-tier litigation partners. It's much harder for a run of the mill big law litigator to land those sorts of exit options.

You can still go in-house as a litigator -- you just won't be litigating anymore but more overseeing what your outside counsel does. Very common exit for Big Law litigators who are midlevel. You go to a client and will often still work on the same issues but from the other side.

You can also shift to a smaller firm but this will depend on your interest and ability in rainmaking and managing clients. If you are good at it you can create some good work-life balance by primarily just being the relationship partners who brings in clients but farming the actual work out to junior partners and counsel. You won't totally get rid of all the fire drills and nights or weekend work but you can gain a ton of flexibility that greatly improves your quality of life so even though you aren't working 9-5 you can be a lot more present at home.

[Anonymous]

Move to a more laid back market. NY/DC Big Law is brutal. I have a friend who went from Big Law NYC to Am Law 100 in Minneapolis (his home town). Path to partnership is much easier, lower billables to hit bonus, and very flexible policies to work out of other offices as he desires (eg, he can work out of NYC office for a week if he wants to see friends). Less international clients means less time zone insanity.

Tho I guess it’s too late once you’re already a partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, if you enjoy any of the following, please make sure you are willing to sacrifice all of them:

— expensive cars
— $2 million plus house
— vacation house
— regular dinners with a $300+ tab
— expensive event tickets on a regular basis
— constant wardrobe updates with designer clothes
— multiple vacations per year at 5 star hotels

Plenty of people are OK without these things. But the golden handcuffs are real. Having a spouse making $750k at a law firm versus $190k per year in govt is the difference between being able to afford these things and not being able to afford them.

Op - I don’t know why I am defending myself but we don’t do any of the things you listed above.

We bought our house for $700,000 10 years ago. We drive a mini van and a sedan. No vacation house or expensive vacations multiple times a year. I don’t even do stitch fix (mostly because I don’t care about clothes).

Our money has all gone towards paying off school loans, daycare for our kids, saving for retirement and college for our kids.

Our biggest splurges are every other year trips to somewhere nice and a fancy dinner out every other month if we can find time and a babysitter.

Okay so why is DH still in biglaw? You don't have golden handcuffs from a super fancy lifestyle.

Everyone is saying that the best option is to leave. Culture change is slow. He should ask fellow colleagues how they set boundaries. But I am in-house and a lot of us are making the point that with extremely high billing rates, we have certain expectations of biglaw attorneys who make much more than we do. And our own deadlines, internal and external, are coming from our leadership or external forces. The real "fix" is to do biglaw for a certain period, make the $$$, and then move on - apart from the small # of people who forge some balance or who really enjoy the work of the $.

Not op but I wonder how people move on. What jobs do they get? I know many attorneys but no big law ones. None make over 300k. And they work very hard, long hours, have billable hours too...So where do former big law people go and get jobs that still pay well and are low pressure?

In-house at banks and tech companies

Neither of those options hire many mid-tier litigation partners. It's much harder for a run of the mill big law litigator to land those sorts of exit options.

Many litigation partners go in house for clients they have represented. That’s the best place to start if someone is committed to going in house.

[Anonymous]

Not in the biz, but found myself inexplicably drawn to this post.

Can't imagine the mental and physical health consequences of this kind of existence.

[Anonymous]

Why change the culture? It works well for everyone involved. Partner make lots of money. non-partners make lots of money until they do not. Clients complain but like the set up. Move along if you need to but the whole system works.