Feedback on strong programs for Middle School-aged swimmers

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

This has been discussed frequently here, but every top club posts their practice requirements and all of their highest performance groups for 11-12 year olds have kids in the water 5 days a week. RMSC, NCAP, ASA, Machine, OCCS, FISH (the top 6 teams at JOs) - all of them have at least 5 practices a week for their top 11-12 year old group.

All these PPs that say NCAP Burke is cool with their top swimmers doing multiple sports- I assure you, they won't want your middle schooler missing practices and meets for other sports in middle school- especially if you're in the top group- my kids have friends there and the pressure is on if you skip and you aren't as favored in coaching. The PP that said that has a 9 year old doing 3x.


OP you say you swam growing up. Then you should know swim is a grind. So summer swim should be a blast and relaxing thing. Pick the team that is nearby and your kid will have fun and friends, they can make all stars on any team if they are fast.

One last thing. Of course a lot of the teams above have tons of kids at JO, they are huge. NCAP is the biggest team, probably followed by Machine, both have many locations. But for an 11/12 year old, they can definitely succeed swimming less, even up to 14. Why decide your kid needs 5x now?

Here’s the thing though, there are practice requirements for the elite 11-12 year old groups. You cannot be in one of those groups and just decide you are only going to swim 3 days a week. That means you then need to place yourself in a regular training group, which will not have a cohort of similar swimmers. OP’s swimmer is AAA/AAAA, the regular 3x a week practice group will not have other swimmers at OPs kid’s level.

Absolutely looking to thread that needle. It’s a very tough balance to let them still be kids, prevent burnout, train them to their abilities with kids their own age and have a structure that will allow them to grow and develop through HS.

Yes, completely understand the grind. Oldest DS practiced 10-11/week through most of HS in a top program out west. I think a lot of coaches learned coming out of COVID that kids don’t really need to practice quite that much year round for years on end. Many swimmers had great seasons in 2021/22 after the COVID rest. I hope gone are the days when elite swimmers quip that they haven’t missed a day of practice in 4 years…including training on every holiday.

We would not choose to prematurely move him up a group as we feel strongly he should train with his own age group. We don’t want to push him to far too fast or put too much pressure on him while he’s young. He already gets it now because he can smoke most of the HS swimmers here. Other parents make all sorts of comments (well meaning) and we have to put the brakes on and remind them he’s still very young.
Yes, absolutely looking for a fun summer swim environment to balance year round club…hopefully with some of the same kids. Swim needs to be FUN!!!

It can be a hard needle to thread for sure. The bigger clubs are generally your best option for that because they can have an age appropriate cohort of swimmers of similar ability to train with. Your kid obviously has innate talent with those times and a smaller club wouldn’t diminish that, but there would be far fewer kids on their level to train with. I’m biased, but my elite kid has benefitted greatly from having kids to train with that are of similar ability and similar age, and that is just something they couldn’t get at a smaller club. Summer swim in this area can be intense, we are in a smaller league and it’s great. My kid has enough of a pressure cooker environment year round, summer is their time to relax and have fun. I don’t know if you’re limited to the Burke area but there are some areas of VA that are accessible to top clubs and a more low key summer environment than NVSL.

Definitely open to Colonial or one of the other summer leagues but know less about them. Burke Center teams swim Colonial, right?

Yes. Burke centre is an HOA community in Burke. Burke centre has two swim teams (Burke centre stingers and Burke centre penguins). They compete in the colonial swim league. The closest club teams- Ncap (Burke location), machine (Audrey Moore location), makos (GMU).

For the OP: You do not have to live in Burke Centre to join the pool, but you do have to join the pool to be on the team. Also, NCAP-Burke practices long course M-Th in the morning during summer, and they practice at one of the Burke Centre pools (Commons, by the VRE station). Many NCAP-Burke swimmers only attend LC practices and do not attend their summer practices except on Fridays. Other NCAP-Burke swimmers, especially the younger ones, split between summer swim practice and LC practice, while a handful may opt-out of LC practice altogether (we still have to pay year-round, though). My son loves LC and LC practice because all his friends are there and he gets a better work out. He attends summer swim team practice during relay carnival and relay all stars weeks and on Fridays (mostly for the relay work). Many of his summer teammates are also at NCAP-Burke, and that helps with the collegiality during summer swim too. The LC pool is cold, though!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

This has been discussed frequently here, but every top club posts their practice requirements and all of their highest performance groups for 11-12 year olds have kids in the water 5 days a week. RMSC, NCAP, ASA, Machine, OCCS, FISH (the top 6 teams at JOs) - all of them have at least 5 practices a week for their top 11-12 year old group.

All these PPs that say NCAP Burke is cool with their top swimmers doing multiple sports- I assure you, they won't want your middle schooler missing practices and meets for other sports in middle school- especially if you're in the top group- my kids have friends there and the pressure is on if you skip and you aren't as favored in coaching. The PP that said that has a 9 year old doing 3x.


OP you say you swam growing up. Then you should know swim is a grind. So summer swim should be a blast and relaxing thing. Pick the team that is nearby and your kid will have fun and friends, they can make all stars on any team if they are fast.

One last thing. Of course a lot of the teams above have tons of kids at JO, they are huge. NCAP is the biggest team, probably followed by Machine, both have many locations. But for an 11/12 year old, they can definitely succeed swimming less, even up to 14. Why decide your kid needs 5x now?

Here’s the thing though, there are practice requirements for the elite 11-12 year old groups. You cannot be in one of those groups and just decide you are only going to swim 3 days a week. That means you then need to place yourself in a regular training group, which will not have a cohort of similar swimmers. OP’s swimmer is AAA/AAAA, the regular 3x a week practice group will not have other swimmers at OPs kid’s level.

Absolutely looking to thread that needle. It’s a very tough balance to let them still be kids, prevent burnout, train them to their abilities with kids their own age and have a structure that will allow them to grow and develop through HS.

Yes, completely understand the grind. Oldest DS practiced 10-11/week through most of HS in a top program out west. I think a lot of coaches learned coming out of COVID that kids don’t really need to practice quite that much year round for years on end. Many swimmers had great seasons in 2021/22 after the COVID rest. I hope gone are the days when elite swimmers quip that they haven’t missed a day of practice in 4 years…including training on every holiday.

We would not choose to prematurely move him up a group as we feel strongly he should train with his own age group. We don’t want to push him to far too fast or put too much pressure on him while he’s young. He already gets it now because he can smoke most of the HS swimmers here. Other parents make all sorts of comments (well meaning) and we have to put the brakes on and remind them he’s still very young.
Yes, absolutely looking for a fun summer swim environment to balance year round club…hopefully with some of the same kids. Swim needs to be FUN!!!

It can be a hard needle to thread for sure. The bigger clubs are generally your best option for that because they can have an age appropriate cohort of swimmers of similar ability to train with. Your kid obviously has innate talent with those times and a smaller club wouldn’t diminish that, but there would be far fewer kids on their level to train with. I’m biased, but my elite kid has benefitted greatly from having kids to train with that are of similar ability and similar age, and that is just something they couldn’t get at a smaller club. Summer swim in this area can be intense, we are in a smaller league and it’s great. My kid has enough of a pressure cooker environment year round, summer is their time to relax and have fun. I don’t know if you’re limited to the Burke area but there are some areas of VA that are accessible to top clubs and a more low key summer environment than NVSL.

Definitely open to Colonial or one of the other summer leagues but know less about them. Burke Center teams swim Colonial, right?

The NCAP-Burke Bronze I coach is the new head coach at Burke Centre Penguins (CSL) as of a few weeks ago. He is awesome!
https://www.gomotionapp.com/team/reccobcpva/page/contacts/coaches

OP- Saw that 💙💙. That would be a great solution…DS really likes him…just need to find a house in that area!! <swim mom superpowers> 🦸‍♀️

Look in Clifton, Fairfax Station Rd/Newman Rd/Henderson Rd/Colchester Rd/Twin Lakes Rd/Chapel Rd. There are like 3 or 4 different zip codes that converge in these areas and it is easy to overlook them because their zip codes are far away from where the post offices for those zip codes are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you're military, there's a really nice summer swim team at Ft. Myer in Arlington. Lots of those kids swim with AAC, which has practices at nearby Long Bridge Aquatic Center.

+1. LB is basically right by the Pentagon. And there is no waitlist to join Fort Myer for summer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

While not useful in terms of coaching, culture, etc, you can identify who othe NCAP-Alexandria swimmers are by looking at NCAP-hosted meets on the PVS web site. Here are the NCAP Invitational results: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-35rm.html

I have observed the age group coaches at meets and I absolutely love how they interact with their swimmers. They also treat officials and other swimmers with great respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

While not useful in terms of coaching, culture, etc, you can identify who othe NCAP-Alexandria swimmers are by looking at NCAP-hosted meets on the PVS web site. Here are the NCAP Invitational results: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-35rm.html

I have observed the age group coaches at meets and I absolutely love how they interact with their swimmers. They also treat officials and other swimmers with great respect.

Here are the Autumn Kingfish meet results, which also disaggregate by NCAP location: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-08rx.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

While not useful in terms of coaching, culture, etc, you can identify who othe NCAP-Alexandria swimmers are by looking at NCAP-hosted meets on the PVS web site. Here are the NCAP Invitational results: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-35rm.html

I have observed the age group coaches at meets and I absolutely love how they interact with their swimmers. They also treat officials and other swimmers with great respect.

Here are the Autumn Kingfish meet results, which also disaggregate by NCAP location: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-08rx.html

This is the NCAP Winter Qualifier, which denotes NCAP-Alexandria as “NCAP-J&M”: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-66rx.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

While not useful in terms of coaching, culture, etc, you can identify who othe NCAP-Alexandria swimmers are by looking at NCAP-hosted meets on the PVS web site. Here are the NCAP Invitational results: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-35rm.html

I have observed the age group coaches at meets and I absolutely love how they interact with their swimmers. They also treat officials and other swimmers with great respect.

Here are the Autumn Kingfish meet results, which also disaggregate by NCAP location: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-08rx.html

This is the NCAP Winter Qualifier, which denotes NCAP-Alexandria as “NCAP-J&M”: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-66rx.html

Thank you! These are very helpful to get an idea about cohorts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is 13 or 14, I would think they'd be above Bronze 1 at NCAP burke? with AA and AAA times? I would look into that more before moving heaven and earth to go there.

Also, NCAP is fast, but they require 5 or 6 days at an early age. Is your kid on board with that? Mako, FAA, and others can give them opportunity with 4/5 days in middle school.

Take it from an older swim parent who is currently watching many of the high schoolers who have been doing this forever get burned out. Injuries happen too.

Exactly what I am thinking. A middle schooler with those times would not be in Bronze 1. My 9 yr moved out of Bronze with A times. A swimmer in MS with AAA/AAAA times would be in Gold. No way it would be Bronze.

Different sites of NCAP use different ages for the programs. At our site you can’t move out of Bronze until age 13 and you can’t get into Gold until HS. Silver is a select group, you have to have certain times, attendance etc. and those are the kids tracking to Gold 1 or 2, the more low key HS group is Gold 3 and you go there directly from Bronze 1 if you aren’t going to Silver.

We are at NCAP-Burke. Most of the swimmers in Bronze I have AA times. A few have AAA times. Most are age 11-12, but several elite 10 year olds are in it. They practice 5 mornings or 5 nights per week for 1.25 or 1.5 hours (NCAP-Burke swimmers under age 12 practice far far less than Machine and RMSC due to coaches’ philosophy that kids should have many activities. 12U NCAP-Burke swimmers are usually multi-sport athletes/dancers/competitive cheer/gymnasts). A few NCAP-Burke swimmers go to Silver I at age 12, but it is only the elite swimmers (similar to the very few 10 year olds that move into Bronze I). At NCAP-Burke, Bronze I is a smaller, coach-selected group, ie, swimmers from Bronze II may never go to Bronze I, and Bronze I is the group that moves into Silver I and Gold I. My daughter is a young nine with BB times and close to one A time, and she will not move into Bronze I until, minimally, age (almost) 11.

That is a nutty amount of swimming for 11-12 yos. BS that those kids are doing “multiple sports” if they’re in the pool 5 nights a week for 1.25-1.5 hours. And RMSC 11-12 yos swim less than that, even the advanced groups.

NP: Pages 10-14: https://www.rockvillemd.gov/DocumentCenter/View/42190/RMSC---Rockville-Fall23-Winter24-Registration-Packet

That info is specific to the Rockville RMSC site which has different rules, groups, and requirements than the other RMSC sites (for example, junior group is kids aged 9-14, whereas its 9-12 at the other sites). For example, see KSAC packet here, bottom of p.3- the RMSC KSAC advanced junior (9-12) group has 5 avail practices but only a 3x week min practice requirement. Sure, there will be kids who choose to swim 4 or all 5 practices but it is not a requirement.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d3725de4b0fbb8d67420a1/t/64a05493b39a4861b777d555/1688229011693/RMSC+2023-2024+Season+-+KSAC+Returning+Swimmer+Information.pdf

For OPs purposes, given her kid’s times, she is probably looking at the equivalent of the 11-14 year old NDG, which requires 5 practices a week. Once the elite kids hit the 11-12 age group the training groups they are in generally expect 5 days a week. Obviously though an elite kid can choose to stay a step below an NDG so they can still play another sport.

OP here…thank you for all of the great info. Maryland isn’t a viable option for us as dad is commuting to Fort Belvoir.
Getting back to the original question. If we are offered housing on Belvoir it seems like the closest teams are Marlins at Geo Washington and NCAP Alexandria (J&M) at Franconia (hopefully moving to new Mt Vernon Rec when it reopens next year). I’ve received feedback that Marlins at Geo Washington probably isn’t at the right level for DS.

Does anyone have personal experience with the Age Group Performance or the 3+ group at NCAP-Alexandria (currently practicing at Franconia)? What’s on their website doesn’t match what we were told via email. It’s a bit confusing. Thank you 😊

While not useful in terms of coaching, culture, etc, you can identify who othe NCAP-Alexandria swimmers are by looking at NCAP-hosted meets on the PVS web site. Here are the NCAP Invitational results: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-35rm.html

I have observed the age group coaches at meets and I absolutely love how they interact with their swimmers. They also treat officials and other swimmers with great respect.

Here are the Autumn Kingfish meet results, which also disaggregate by NCAP location: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-08rx.html

This is the NCAP Winter Qualifier, which denotes NCAP-Alexandria as “NCAP-J&M”: https://www.pvswim.org/2324meet/24-66rx.html

Thank you! These are very helpful to get an idea about cohorts.

Here is the Age Group Performance Schedule for NCAP-Alexandria: https://www.gomotionapp.com/pvjandm/__doc__/510942_2_J&M%20AG%20Performance%20(1).pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the part where the parents of elites feel threatened and say it’s simply “impossible” to final at the big meets if you’re not training 5 days+/week. (They don’t want to know that there are comparable swimmers training less than their kids.) The rest of us point out several examples of where this isn’t the case and around and round we go. There are clubs that allow 4 days/week for their elite age group swimmers and those kids are making big cuts and finals at big meets. There are just a lot more at NCAP etc. doing so. and sure, it’s partly the training and partly a numbers game as a PP pointed out. Bottom line, if you’re seeking balance, there are clubs where a AAA/AAAA swimmer will flourish with 4 days/week and there are clubs where it won’t be allowed. Neither is better, but both options do exist for highly competitive age group swimmers.

A little nervous about wading into this convo but could you name a program. I have a 12 year old who I would love to have in the pool 4 days only but haven’t found that option for a top level program. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the part where the parents of elites feel threatened and say it’s simply “impossible” to final at the big meets if you’re not training 5 days+/week. (They don’t want to know that there are comparable swimmers training less than their kids.) The rest of us point out several examples of where this isn’t the case and around and round we go. There are clubs that allow 4 days/week for their elite age group swimmers and those kids are making big cuts and finals at big meets. There are just a lot more at NCAP etc. doing so. and sure, it’s partly the training and partly a numbers game as a PP pointed out. Bottom line, if you’re seeking balance, there are clubs where a AAA/AAAA swimmer will flourish with 4 days/week and there are clubs where it won’t be allowed. Neither is better, but both options do exist for highly competitive age group swimmers.

A little nervous about wading into this convo but could you name a program. I have a 12 year old who I would love to have in the pool 4 days only but haven’t found that option for a top level program. Thank you!

A number of smaller teams have both good swimmers and options for 2, 3, or 4 days per week at 12 years old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the part where the parents of elites feel threatened and say it’s simply “impossible” to final at the big meets if you’re not training 5 days+/week. (They don’t want to know that there are comparable swimmers training less than their kids.) The rest of us point out several examples of where this isn’t the case and around and round we go. There are clubs that allow 4 days/week for their elite age group swimmers and those kids are making big cuts and finals at big meets. There are just a lot more at NCAP etc. doing so. and sure, it’s partly the training and partly a numbers game as a PP pointed out. Bottom line, if you’re seeking balance, there are clubs where a AAA/AAAA swimmer will flourish with 4 days/week and there are clubs where it won’t be allowed. Neither is better, but both options do exist for highly competitive age group swimmers.

A little nervous about wading into this convo but could you name a program. I have a 12 year old who I would love to have in the pool 4 days only but haven’t found that option for a top level program. Thank you!

A number of smaller teams have both good swimmers and options for 2, 3, or 4 days per week at 12 years old.

DP - Machine's High Performance (HP) Silver group swims four days/week and is for kids between 11 and 14. For 13 and over kids, they have various Senior programs that offer options from two to six days/week.

[Anonymous]

Mako senior prep gold allows 4 days/week.